I give up. (rant)

[RebelMoonGSDs]

Cookies and milk if you make it through all this!

When I bought Ruger it was as a pet quality pup with limited AKC registration. I spoke with his breeder about my intended plans for him (competitions other than confo), and we spoke about the male they kept from the same litter for potential future breeding purposes. They were looking into competing with him in Conformation (though he is a more "square" dog, they were still going to get him out there), and maybe some other "sports" to title him.

Well, as Ruger matures, I feel that he is a GSD who would be worth putting into the confo ring. I also, after having spoken to the breeder (we keep in touch), feel that Ruger has a better temperament/mindset and is a better dog overall than the male they retained.

They have also taken no steps towards doing anything with the male they retained, and do not sound at all like they are going to do anything with him. I find this really disappointing, because they do go through the trouble of health testing (hips and elbows and good hips 5 gens back in pedigree) their female(s) (they only bred one female, she's had two litters and is slated to be spayed), and they sent her out to a stud who comes from good working/protection Czech lines (also with good hips all throughout 5 gens and himself as well), but are doing nothing else with what are actually well bred dogs!

I know this is not my problem, but it's frustrating just the same. I understand that they are a small hobby breeder, but they also have sounded like eventually they'd like to expand their program and become better recognized. Well, that's not going to happen if they don't get their dogs out there as other than pets (which I believe Ruger is the only one who is likely to do anything, I believe the rest went to active, but still pet, homes).

*sigh* I got a better quality dog than I expected as far as confo goes, and yes, now I realize I do want to show that off, as well as get these people's good selection and hard work recognized. Is that so bad? So I sent them this email after speaking with the Mrs on the phone:

Hello Karen and Andrew! Hopefully I can explain here a little clearer what I had in mind regarding Ruger and his registration/my hopes for him.

I understand your husband's desire to keep registration limited so that your pups don't produce unwanted/unnecessary litters, and also respect that. Limiting registration is a good way to do dissuade people from breeding your pups once they mature.

What I was hoping to do was this:

I would like to get full registration granted for Ruger, so that I can show him in AKC conformation shows. He is not the type that is winning in the ring right now, but I have had encouragement to show him in the confo ring despite that. This is something I've wanted to do, but haven't had the right dog, or the confidence to do, until now.

Ruger is turning into a fine example of the breed, and in the event that you don't show Wolf (or even if you do), it's a great opportunity to get your name and your dogs out there. As Ruger has matured, I feel that it's not just his looks, but his personality as well that makes him a good example of how a German Shepherd should be. He has great bone, a gorgeous head, and a noble, intelligent expression even when he is being a silly puppy.


I will be willing to pay you an additional $200, making Ruger's purchase price $1000 for a "show quality" pup, as well as pay for whatever fee may be charged by the AKC to change him to full registration (actually, I have not sent in his AKC papers yet, because I couldn't decide on a registered name, so I don't know how this effects that).

I have to say, that when I got Ruger I was looking for a dog mainly to do competitions along the lines of agility/working dog (which he could do with limited registration), but as he matures, I feel that he may be beyond my (and maybe even your) expectations. I don't judge German Shepherds lightly, because I feel that this is a breed that needs as much help in the right direction as possible, and Ruger is a step in that direction. I'm proud to tell people when they ask, where he came from.

Please think this over. I have no plans to use Ruger as a stud, though if you decided as he matures that he's a good candidate for your DDR female, I'd obviously be willing to do that (if he clears his hip/elbow testing at 2 years). All I really want is the chance to get into the confo ring with him and show what a *real* German Shepherd should look like. This is a breed I love and have a passion for, and with your help, and Ruger's, I feel that this is a chance to make a positive change in the breed. Your breeding has produced a great dog, and I'm proud to call him mine.

You can reply via email, or call me if you like.

Take care, and good luck with the kids! (All of them!).

~Krystal and Ruger

I have had it suggested to me that I could limited Reg him with the AKC and then fully register him with the UKC, so I could show him in confo and then if I chose to, breed him and the pups would be registerable, but the goal here isn't breeding, it's showing. And I would also feel kinda dishonest doing that, honestly. Also, I looked up UKC shows and there are *no* conformation shows in/around my area (I would have to travel easily about 4 hours for the "closest" show). *sigh* Sorry for the rant, I just had to vent/have a pity party.

Milk and cookies for anyone who trudged through this whole thing and can give advice or relate!

[SunCzarina]

The breeders here can give you some better answers on the legal logistics. Isn't there some sort of contract in the breeding world where his breeder would maintain control over who he's bred to - if ever? Maybe I'm thinking of co-ownership, which probably isn't what you want.

[BlackPuppy]

Where are my milk and cookies?

Maybe if you emphasized that they could be in total control of the breeding part (if it ever comes to that).

But it sounds very well written. Too bad there's no way to show conformation without the breeder giving you full rights.

[SouthernThistle]

Originally Posted by SunCzarina

The breeders here can give you some better answers on the legal logistics. Isn't there some sort of contract in the breeding world where his breeder would maintain control over who he's bred to - if ever? Maybe I'm thinking of co-ownership, which probably isn't what you want.

It's not "some contract." There isn't a defined show quality/full registration standard contract that every breeder requires their buyers to sign. It's true that some breeders, when selling a dog on full registration, will require certain stipulations be met, may require that the dog retain a portion of their kennel name in its registered name, may require all of the breeding rights, and may require approval/stipulations for females to which the dog is bred. However, not all breeders require those stipulations in their agreement.

I don't see anything wrong with sending your dog's breeder that note asking about showing him in conformation/lifting limited reg. status. They could say, "no," or they could state requirements to be met prior to lifting the status.

I know we signed a contract with Grimmies' breeder that goes into specifics about Full Registration/Show Quality, etc. She requires that Grimmies passes OFA hips and elbows as well as receive his CGC and at least one [working] title whether it be FH or RN, etc. before the consideration to lift L.R. is granted. That doesn't mean that if Grimmies comes back OFA hips/elbows good, CGC, and his RN title that he will automatically have his L.R. lifted, but it's merely that consideration is given TO lift it. His breeder wants to make sure that the dogs produced by her breeding meet the stipulations for the "all-around dog."

Are there any non-AKC sanctioned "fun shows" you can enter Ruger in to see how he does? There are some charity "fun shows" in our area that have conformation classes. I don't think they have set requirements like Full AKC Reg. or even requirements regarding neutered animals either because it's...a "fun show." Maybe you can find a conformation judge in your area to take a look at Ruger, etc.?

We had a conformation judge and long-time (40 yrs.) German Shepherd breeder compliment us on Grimmies when Grimmies was 10 months old saying he was "one of the best looking German Shepherds she's ever seen and definitely one of the best looking German Shepherds she's seen recently." We were VERY proud, and this was when we took him to his first dog show (he did not compete in it. We were meeting another breeder of AmStaffs who was showing her dogs that day.)

White Chocolate Macadamian Nut, please

[RebelMoonGSDs]

It does kill me a bit. It is my fault for saying that I didn't have plans to show Ruger confo so limited reg. would be fine, but I also had no way of knowing at 5 months old that he would be maturing into (what I think is) such a good example of the breed standard.

I would not say total control of the breeding part, but I would be more than willing to give them a lot of say, or run any potential breedings by them.

I could go the co-ownership route, but I almost feel like they would try to take advantage of that situation, maybe without even realizing it. Or they could potentially hold us back.

I will have to accept that Ruger will not be able to show in confo unless, when he's two, I get him all health cleared and can then convince them that he should be full registered so he can show (I know some dogs do not even begin to show until they're older and past the "gangly puppy" stage), and that if he were to be bred ever, that it would only be to titled, health cleared females. *sigh* Still, at least they are trying to do the right thing by only giving the pups limited registration to prevent over breeding and such. Still, there is a way around it which is to register with the UKC...I almost want to tell them that they should create mandatory spay/neuter contracts so that they have a 100% guarantee that none of their pups will be bred. I can't fault them for their good intentions, though it is frustrating!

SouthernThistle: now I have to add to this post! lol

What is a "fun match"? I have never heard of one, I only ever see AKC sanctioned shows around here. Also, the few judges/breeders of GSDs that I know of around here, tend to judge the Am. showline dogs, so I don't know if they would be so keen on Ruger's type (even though this is exactly what I expect to meet in the show ring as well, but that won't stop me from showing), and I don't know if it would help me in the long run to convince the breeder that Ruger is a good example of the breed (and their own goal!). I like the idea of maybe seeing if I title Ruger in something, it could be lifted, and I did (on the phone) suggest they consider it during one of our conversations, but they are very very hesitant to offer anything but limited reg. on any of their pups. Actually, it's the Mr. that is really "not comfortable" with it, the Mrs. is actually willing to consider it.

Another edit: I have contemplated still taking Ruger to a walk-in weekly breed handling class just for fun, it's ALMOST like a show, right? lol I figure, getting in the training in case a miracle occurs can't hurt!

[Chicagocanine]

I'm kinda confused. Did the breeder already answer your letter and say no?

[RebelMoonGSDs]

Originally Posted by Chicagocanine

I'm kinda confused. Did the breeder already answer your letter and say no?

yes, this is the reply I got:

Hey, Krystal...

just wanted you to know that we got your e-mail, and Andrew doesn't think that it is something that he is comfortable doing at this time. I'll keep it, and we'll be in touch... we'll see...


Karen

I appreciate that they took the time to read it, and it's not an outright "No not ever ever ever", but it's still a bit frustrating. Especially when they kept a male themselves with the initial intention of showing him/keeping him as a stud and have since then taken no steps to get the dog trained or prepped for any type of showing/competing (I've asked when talking to them about how Wolf, the one they kept, is going with this type of thing). I've met a full sister from the prev. litter to these and she's a great little herding dog (they live on a farm) and works their goats and one bull quite naturally, it's just them getting themselves and their dogs out there and *proven*!

[SouthernThistle]

Originally Posted by RebelMoonGSDs

SouthernThistle: now I have to add to this post! lol

What is a "fun match"? I have never heard of one, I only ever see AKC sanctioned shows around here. Also, the few judges/breeders of GSDs that I know of around here, tend to judge the Am. showline dogs, so I don't know if they would be so keen on Ruger's type (even though this is exactly what I expect to meet in the show ring as well, but that won't stop me from showing), and I don't know if it would help me in the long run to convince the breeder that Ruger is a good example of the breed (and their own goal!). I like the idea of maybe seeing if I title Ruger in something, it could be lifted, and I did (on the phone) suggest they consider it during one of our conversations, but they are very very hesitant to offer anything but limited reg. on any of their pups. Actually, it's the Mr. that is really "not comfortable" with it, the Mrs. is actually willing to consider it.

Well Grimm definitely is NOT American Showline nor is he the American Showline "type"

"Fun Shows" around here are mainly for people who may never have the intention of breeding their dog, may have gotten it as a rescue, etc. and "show" in conformation. They are generally done as fundraisers for animal shelters, humane societies, pet rescues, etc. and are judged by actual conformation judges. Of course, the "wins" don't count as anything than experience and fun.

[SunCzarina]

Humf, that's not what you wanted is it? Do you already have his registration or are they holding it for neuter - that's what Otto's breeder did.

I haven't touched base with them in a few years but there's a local club in providence - Obedience training club of rhode island. They used to meet at the K of C in north providence (right off 146).

If you're interested, let me know, I have contact the numbers on my fridge. There used to be a judge involved with the club, he did training sometimes.

[RebelMoonGSDs]

I have his registration, I just have to send it in (I'm stuck between Hot Brass as a reg. name, or Powered by Pyrodex, to continue with the firearm theme!). The breeder did not stipulate that Ruger had to be neutered at any time, and I told them from the start I prefer to leave male dogs intact until at least age 4 for maturing (This is personal preference, but if the dog showed behavioural issues due to "testosterone overload" obviously he would be neutered sooner). So no, they aren't waiting for me to neuter Ruger.

Push comes to shove, I'd be happy enough doing fun shows if it benefited a charity or rescue organization, if for nothing else than the experience. It's not what I ideally want for Ruger or myself, but it's a start. And heck, maybe if the breeder saw what was out there and the benefits of promoting their dogs (or just working style but still conformationally "pretty" dogs) they would change their mind about his registration.

I will look into the Obed. club in N. Prov. Did he do show style training? Or just overall general training and some show? Thanks for the info!