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New CZech Shepherd Purchase

6K views 39 replies 14 participants last post by  markbrick 
#1 ·
I have a brother who just purchased a IPO3 Czech GSD. I have owned and trained mine and have never had an issue. He is new to dogs and purchased one thinking he wouldn't need to train it. It would just be a good house companion because it had so much training. While I have some experience, I thought someone could help me with giving him advice. On a related note, while visiting with the dog the first time, it came right up and was very friendly. When the owner went into the other room, my brother said the dog kinda turned on them and started barking at them. He wasn't sure what that was about. The dog is 3 years old and just had pups 4 weeks ago. The pups were in the room and my brother thought maybe that caused the dog to change it's demeanor?

Here are his questions:

1. If a cleaning lady came over does he need to put the dog in the kennel? (Guessing the answer is always yes, is there anyway to introduce a dog to someone and then the dog will always not freak out when they just walk in?)

2. If In Laws come to town, like the question above, how long before he can trust the inlaws can walk in and out of the house freely?

3. How about babysitters? Once they are introduced, will they be good all around the house?

The breeder is bringing the dog to the house in 4 weeks after it's pups are weaned. Any input would be helpful. Knowing how dog people can be, I probably should say I always had a 6ft fence with a doggie door and and a dog pen. I never thought of these questions, because if I had a stranger coming over when I wasn't there he would be locked away in the back yard. I'm curious to know how long before you can introduce a dog to someone and then the dog doesn't consider them a threat. I also never had a dog with this much training. Is an IPO 3 dog completely safe having gone thru socialization, training, and from good bloodlines.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Oh boy. This sounds like a not so good situation. It really will come down to the nerves of the dog... and there is some indication that she can be a bit nervous... maybe it is puppies, maybe not. From the get go, with a dog trained to bite and a handler with no training, always keep the dog under control and supervised with new people... ALWAYS. No one will be able to put a time dimension to this without extensive knowledge and experience with THIS dog. Your brother is insane if he thinks he doesn't need to invest in training and work with this dog... and likely it is he that has to learn a lot. I would be very worried about someone who thinks they are buying something that once trained always trained. And absolutely not, a dog with IPO 3 is not somehow inherently safe. Lots of unknowns here and lots of opportunity for extensive liability and for things to go very wrong.

I should add what I would do. I would commit myself to investing in extensive training and work with this dog. The only way it becomes safer is if the dog and I have a great relationship and that comes with lots of work and money invested in training. I would get a commitment from the breeder that if things don't work out, he or she will take the dog back. I would ask the breeder who he/she worked with in training for IPO and I would contact that person, that club and get a lot more information about the dogs nerve strength, temperament and needs. I would go slow and not expect the dog to be an automaton but a living breathing animal that needs care and attention to detail. I would ask a lot of myself to give the dog the best opportunity to adjust to a new world without asking it to be a perfect piece of furniture.

Ask your brother if he is really willing to work at this.
 
#11 ·
Oh boy. This sounds like a not so good situation. It really will come down to the nerves of the dog... and the here is some indication that she can be a bit nervous... maybe it is puppies, maybe not. From the get go, with a dog trained to bite and a handler with no training, always keep the dog under control and supervised with new people... ALWAYS. No one will be able to put a time dimension to this without extensive knowledge and experience with THIS dog. Your brother is insane if he thinks he doesn't need to invest in training and work with this dog... and likely it is he that has to learn a lot. I would be very worried about someone who thinks they are buying something that once trained always trained. And absolutely not, a dog with IPO 3 is not somehow inherently safe. Lots of unknowns here and lots of opportunity for extensive liability and for things to go very wrong.

I should add what I would do. I would commit myself to investing in extensive training and work with this dog. The only way it becomes safer is if the dog and I have a great relationship and that comes with lots of work and money invested in training. I would get a commitment from the breeder that if things don't work out, he or she will take the dog back. I would ask the breeder who he/she worked with in training for IPO and I would contact that person, that club and get a lot more information about the dogs nerve strength, temperament and needs. I would go slow and not expect the dog to be an automaton but a living breathing animal that needs care and attention to detail. I would ask a lot of myself to give the dog the best opportunity to adjust to a new world without asking it to be a perfect piece of furniture.

Ask your brother if he is really willing to work at this.
Outstanding advice. I'd also ask your brother why he thinks he needs an IPO III?
 
#3 · (Edited)
I would always contain a dog, no matter what titles s/he has when strangers are in the home(especially if you are not there to supervise and manage the interactions)
It has everything to do with being fair to the dog.

A 3 year old female that has an IPO3 and a litter of puppies doesn't mean her temperament is solid, nor does it mean it isn't. When there is a litter involved, of course she is in her mothering protection mode.

Once the dog has settled into your brothers home(6 month timeframe usually shows the dog for who they are) and he truly knows her, then those questions may be answered, but I would still crate the dog when strangers are in the house if the dog shows any behaviors that could set her up to fail.

IPO is a sport, it is situational and the training doesn't mean the dog is going to be good to go in all situations, your brother needs to learn how to keep the training up, and his handling skills should be addressed.
 
#4 ·
I agree with both of you. When I was doing Schutzhund training, I always admired the people who earned the Sch 3 title. The dogs were always complete gentlemen and loved their owners. I also know how much time the handler and dog spent together to make this a reality. It was a daily lifestyle for most of them. I'm wondering how can you determine the temperament of a high powered dog without truly testing it? Meaning this breeder is out in a small town without a lot of people. I would be interested can I take it to Lowe's, how about unleashed at my local dog park, or in the back yard of my families house with their golden retriever?

Is it very normal to get a money back guarantee if this thing turns into a monster? How long would a guarantee normally be? I'm sure the dog isn't a monster, but how long of a guarantee in case my brother turns him into a monster?
 
#6 ·
So the owner of this dog is selling her. My first question is why? My second question is that he is selling her to your brother knowing he has no experience and isn't requiring any training with her?


I agree with what the others have said about learning about her, and his need to get training. I had an aunt move in with me with her Sch3 and Personal Protection Dog. My aunt did not keep up the training, ignoring when the dog ignored her. Very dangerous. I began working with her and she bonded to me. I later inherited her.


Personally, I think your brother may be getting in over his head.
 
#7 ·
So the owner of this dog is selling her. My first question is why? My second question is that he is selling her to your brother knowing he has no experience and isn't requiring any training with her?

Personally, I think your brother may be getting in over his head.
I wanted to ask this as well. Not many put a bitch through all that training and trialing and then breed by 3 yrs old just to sell. Especially not knowing how the puppies are turning out. Most good breeders would keep her around at least until they can see the puppies progress, H&E prelims, ect.
 
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#9 ·
Can't talk about breeding as all my Pups were 'happy accidents' bar one who was a pup sold to me as pet quality. I had young children at the time and that pup wasn't going to win any competitions but she was an amazing family dog. (If you weren't a vet!) But in answer to your questions.
1. Cleaner - my dogs would be crated, kept away.
2. In laws, extended family. They are all 'disney' parents. Lots of treats, no rules. My dogs used to squeak with excitement when they turned up. But it was awhile before I let them be in charge when I wasn't there.
3. Babysitters - Dogs were always crated, sitters paid to look after my kids not the dog.
 
#12 ·
Another thing to consider about a Czech dog's is that they tend to be a little lower in prey drive but higher in defense. All of which suggests a need for a more experienced handler. The dog may show more sharpness than we might expect to see in a West German dog. Not ideal for a rookie.

This whole thing is much more complex than 'is an IPO dog completely safe'. The simple answer is no.

It just can't be overemphasized how important it is for your brother to get with an experienced IPO trainer.

And DutchKarin is asking exactly the right question--why are they selling her?
 
#14 ·
He thought he needed an IPO 3 dog because it would be a stable dog that would be turn key ready. He is thinking the dog would be able to be taken anywhere without any issues. His dream is to be able to take a dog off leash and go jogging, take him to the public beach and throw sticks, go into some public dog friendly restaurants and have the dog lay by his side, etc.. He isn't concerned about protection, he just wants a great family dog that is very well trained. He probably should get a golden but loves the looks of the GSD.

Another piece of history I learned last night. The breeder brought this dog over from Czech about 90 days ago. It was pregnant when he bought her. Now the dog had pups 4 weeks ago. So the breeder has only known this dog for a short period of time. I wonder what that means if anything?

In terms of paperwork, the breeder has tons of it. Going back like 8 generations in the past.

I thought a breeder selling to an inexperienced handler was questionable. However, I called 3 different breeders who had IPO3 dogs I found online and they were all very willing to sell their champ. I told them I was inexperienced and just doing some shopping looking for a great family dog. So I can't blame the breeder for trying to make a living.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Sounds sad to me. I am sorry for the dog being handled like some sort of commodity for profit it sounds like. Who else would sell this dog to a novice who is looking for a pet dog? Shame on the owner of the female dog for not selling her to someone who can handle her. It is setting up for disaster for the new owner and the dog.
 
#23 ·
sort of sounds like it doesn't it .
buy female, import with pups expected -- so far nothing wrong with that -- but I suspect he then goes around and sells the imported dam for as much as if not more (broker fee) AND he has the $$$ from the litter.

"He thought he needed an IPO 3 dog because it would be a stable dog that would be turn key ready"

All dogs will have a transition period. This is not a car !
 
#27 ·
What is the draw to this female? Did your brother spend time looking for a well trained 'turn-key' dog? Is this a larger scale breeding operation?

Now and then breeders will rehome retired titled breeding bitches for a minimal fee that are good as far as companions go.
If this female is a really nice producer, she should be bred again, she is very young yet. But not knowing the reason for the smaller litter, or if the whelp was difficult, so many things play into it. I'd also like to see her pedigree and that of the litter, just for more information.
 
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#28 ·
.markbrick said "
On the same note the breeder gave him three different purchase options. He said pay the full price and do whatever you want with the dog. Second pay 2/3 of the price and the breeder will split the proceeds from the next litter. Thirdly, pay 1/3 of the price and the breeder gets all the pups from the next litter. I'm sure 1/3 2/3 and full are simplified and not really accurate, but it went something like that. "

or there is the option -- give me the deposit back and you'll never see or hear of me again.

if he goes for a deal - oh boy does he have to be sharp and make sure every contingency is covered .

for example who will pay for all stud associated costs? who will whelp the litter ?

Pay 1/3 and the seller gets ALL the pups .

when and how often is a breeding to take place.

what if the dog dies and no litter has happened in the interim. Does the guy sue for potential lost revenue - or sue to claim the full price of the dog , since conditions of sale were not met.

sounds worse all the time.
 
#34 ·
Followup - Dog Arrived.

Dog arrived and I was able to go over after about a week of him getting used to his new family and living accomodations. The dog came right up and had no real reaction to me. Very friendly, in a GSD type of way. Meaning came up and wagged his tail and sniffed me then went back to fetching a ball in the yard. As mentioned this dog is IPO 3, but there were some things that seemed a bit different (Not in a good or bad way, just different) Dog has never walked up wood stairs, which you can tell. Dog has never been in a Petco. You could tell the automatic doors and different noises were unfamiliar to her. Just a ton of new experiences this girl is going through that IPO doesn't directly address. So I can see other posters on this thread saying you really have no idea what she might react to just because of this.

One point to mention that I'm not sure what to do. We take the dog to a big field and I'm going to show him how to track his dog. I was trained to use a harness on the dog and use hotdogs and do the usual routine. I was taught german commands and this dog is CZECH. The dog did great, but not what I would expect a dog of this caliber. Since this dog was trained and titled in Czech, there is no way I would know how she was trained. Am I saying the commands correctly? Did this dog use a lead under his legs and I'm using a harness? After the dog would lie down and identify an object I would pet, grab the object, and then give the command STOPA. The dog would do anything. I would go up an kinda give him a poke and then say STOPA and he would start moving and continue tracking.

You can imagine all the commands my brother is giving and the dog would sometimes do something and sometimes not. I would just say I have no idea what command you just gave. Kinda awkward. With that said we are going to a club trial this weekend and they have an obedience workshop where the trainer knows CZECH.

Feel free to comment, just thought I would give some followup from a month or so ago. So far the dog is super friendly and doesn't seem timid or aggressive at all. Which we expected.
 
#35 ·
dog probably wasn't trained with hot dogs either .

how the dog recognizes and recovers and then finally stops reacting to novel stimuli is more important .

dog may not have been a house dog -- I had an import once that didn't know how to use the stairs .

she stood at the top and did one flying leap !

she learned quickly and became an expert at it .
 
#36 ·
The stair thing can be an architectural thing. We adopted a dog in Florida who had never been out of FL in his life. We lived in two different houses that didn't have stairs.

When we drove to New England with him, we stayed at my sister's house part way up. He went upstairs with everyone, happy as can be, then we got back to the stairs and he looked down a very long, steep flight of stairs and laid down on the floor and would not be moved.

It took me a half hour to get him down. Peanut butter didn't work. I underestimated his attachment to me and training. I tried dragging him down, couldn't do it. Too big to carry. So I went to the bottom of the stairs and called him the way I recall them when I mean business, and he sort of crawled down poor guy. We had really worked hard on a bomb proof recall. He was fine with all stairs thereafter, and went up and down that same flight of stairs ten more times before we left.

He had just never seen such a thing in his life, coming from Florida where most houses are single story
 
#37 ·
Sorry for the delayed response. I showed him all the responses and he said the breeder said if the dog isn't what he wanted, he would give his money back. So my brother was like "Whats the worst case scenario, the dog doesn't work out and back he goes." This isn't to say he wasn't concerned about all the comments mentioned. He was and still is. i
 
#40 ·
Bar B Que: Not so good.

Ok so here is some more info. The dog has been around for a couple months now. When I interact with the dog I have some weird feelings. First the dog has never acted aggressive with me at all. However, if I lean down to pet the dog, it always moves away. Like he is scared or unsure. If I sit down she will come up to me and likes to be petted. Concern is why would this dog be scared? Scared dogs have always have been unpredictable in my experience. I'm thinking this dog was hit or something while being trained. Doesn't like any movement of hands.

Last night I finally invited my brother and his family over for a bar b que. He brought his dog into my fenced in back yard and we were just hanging out. He had his dog on the leash and then I let my golden retriever and and my 8 week old Newfoundland out in the back yard. My golden went up to the gsd and the gsd lunged and came very close to getting what looked like a big bite into the dog. Then the gsd went for the pup. No one was hurt or bit, but I just kenneled my dogs and sat around thinking what the heck? The gsd didn't look scared, but looked ready to roll. The gsd had his hair on his back up and raised and was definitely going after them.

So bottom line is no more play dates with his cousin dogs. My brother is no pack leader and didn't know what to do. He asked what he should do, and I said it's too late. I said you need to be thinking before the dog even thinks it. Training. Anyways, I was just surprised a well trained dog would be so aggressive to other dogs. Especially when not on their own turf! The dog seems very neutral to other people, but wow. Anyway to fix this or it just is the way it is?
 
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