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I would have Pooh-poohed this article, until I read it

4K views 49 replies 16 participants last post by  Chip18 
#1 ·
https://iaabcjournal.org/2016/10/01/train-sit-reconsider-relevance/

I've seen an article or two about Not Teaching Dogs the Sit Command. I don't think they presented their points very well. In fact some gave reasons that from watching my own dogs, simply did not apply.

But in this article I think they give some very valid reasons. I may give this a try in my own at home training. (We train for IPO as well, and they must sit for some exercises)
 
#4 · (Edited)
Sit is a functionally near useless behavior. I always ask people what sit is good for and the answers they give me are all not good cases for sit. Don't want him jumping on you? Correct him when he jumps and never give reinforcement for it. Want the dog to stay? Teach him don't move. Sit doesn't need to happen. Want a dog to settle? Teach him to do that on cue and correct over excited behavior after that cue.

If I had a dollar for every sit conmand I heard a person say that wasn't enforced successfully I'd be Donald Trump rich. My dogs know it because of competition and it doesn't take actual effort for me to teach that stuff just as a consequence of life. Sit sit sit sit sit sit oh look dog is still bouncing off everything in sight. It's the number 1 command people say almost reflexively and don't enforce that shows the dog a clear picture of what you say can be ignored and nothing will happen because of it.

I hardly ever use it outside of sport. I tell dogs stay at the door it just means don't go through. I don't care what position the dog is in. Weirdly enough when you teach most dogs focused attention on cue most of them end up sitting to do it by default even if that isn't part of your criteria. Teaching the sit itself is pretty much pointless.
 
#5 ·
Almost every dog comes in knowing it already they just blow you off usually because it's almost never enforced. That and shake without it being on verbal cue. Soooo annoying. Dogs paw slapping me when I'm teaching a down because someone taught shake before anything of consequence. Dog doesn't have a recall might be biting people tearing the house up barking at everything that moves but hey it can shake! Priorities!
 
#7 ·
Wow! I had no idea 'SIT' was so controversial. lol! My dogs do sit and stay on command. I do enforce it. They sit on every curb, before we cross the street. I don't even have to say it. They sit before being fed. They sit before meeting people - mostly, because I think it makes 'some' of the people they are meeting more comfortable. I am horrible. Oh well. HA!
 
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#10 ·
All of my dogs learned sit at a very young age. They also sit at doors, before feedings, when I call them back to me, when starting heel it is at a sit position until I initiate walk, when I say attention it is in front if me sitting looking up at me. It becomes habit for them. I personally can't find any reason I would not teach sit to a dog.
 
#11 · (Edited)
The point is that sit is pointless. My contact heel for mondio has no sit on a stop. The dog just doesn't leave the position until released. The dog can take whatever position it wants at the door and doesn't go through until released, the dog can do whatever position it wants before feedings and gives space until released. The sit portion of the criteria for any of those behaviors is effectively useless. If you live in a world where the dog must do what you tell them to do like I do it is one more criteria of behavior that can go wrong and must be maintained. For simplicity sake and practicality sake it is useless.
 
#12 ·
Sit was also an easy command for my 12 yr old to start with. Both in getting the dogs to listen and teaching him how to enforce if they didn't listen to a command. The dogs learned that when he talks to listen and it gave him confidence to progress ahead with more complex commands. Could all of this have been accomplished with a different command sure. But sit worked for us. Don't think I would scratch the command based on an article or two.
 
#14 ·
I guess I'm one of the odd women out. I like the sit command. To me it's no different than any other command I give. If I say it, they do it. Especially with a big dog it makes people more relaxed. What difference does it make if I ask a dog to sit and wait or stand and wait? I think it's personal preference I guess.
 
#16 ·
You and I are on exactly the same page. I don't find the command useless at all. I use it every day. My dogs have no problem with it. Don't really understand why anyone else would care, if I make my dog sit. I don't care if somebody wants to make their dog stand. lol!
 
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#18 ·
I dunno. All these years (and I am very, very old) I have used the sit command. Never had a single issue with it.

Think I'll start making my dogs sit on crates like circus lions. Would that cause issues - or only if I use a whip?

Just to add - I also kiss all over my dogs faces. I'm just a very unnatural type person. But, it works for me. HA!
 
#19 ·
It isn't that there is an issue with it or that it can create problems if you keep up with it like anything else, but it is an extra piece that isn't needed. It serves no true purpose but to detract from the purity of getting at what you're really trying to accomplish with the dog. A sit because you don't want the dog to jump is just correcting for jumping. A sit because you want a stay is an extra piece to the command stay that is not necessary. A sit because you want your dog to give you space so you can put their foot down is an extra unnecessary piece to asking a dog for space.
 
#20 ·
This article is written by a working dog trainer and appears to be directed at working dogs. I'm sure an article against teaching dogs to heel could be given the same reasoning, after all, it could just walk naturally at your side. ( just using this as an example.) As she states in the article, dogs sit for I think it was three different reasons. One was to observe. When I took Enya to her last vet appointment there was a bloodhound there who upon seeing her commenced to baying, lunging and barking at the top of his lungs. Small room, good echo effects. The vet and vet techs came running to the front. It was a long wait due to an emergency. I told Enya to sit. She sat and watched the Bloodhound. After a while she explored the area around us, barked at the ceramic dog behind my chair and then laid down. My telling her to sit visibly relaxed her. I was in control, she didn't have to worry. She wasn't upset by the big dog and big noise, but didn't understand it. I wouldn't tell her to lay down as that would make her feel vulnerable. For the last half of the wait she sat back up and just waited, occasionally watching the noisy bouncing bloodhound or looking around the room.


I think a sit command has a place in most households. Just like the sit, sit, sit command that is ignored, I'm just as annoyed at the come, come, come command that is ignored. I think to not teach a sit to a working dog that doesn't need it for working is fine, but I don't think that it is a useless command in the overall life of a dog that not a working dog.


I'm not meaning to argue, just discussing.
 
#21 ·
to a new dog owner who may not know any better, a SIT command is one of the very first commands that will be taught, as was to my dog by me

now, whenever my i bring food to my dog, he will sit without any verbal commands from my part. i just stand and look at my dog, and he will sit, and i set the bowl down, and he will wait until i tell him to EAT

whenever we play fetch, he will bring the toy back, set it in front of me, and he will sit, staring at the toy. i will then pick it up and resume play

same thing as i pass the gates in my house


god, i love my little doggy
 

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#23 ·
Exactly, if anything it is a default action that is useful in day to day life. I do the same before eating, they already know that relaxation gets them a reward. Or at a traffic light, I dont want them jumping around on the corner because it's dangerous. Sit is useful to me, but I want someone to enlighten me to why it's not useful.
 
#25 ·
I'm glad to read this thread! I've never seen the point of sit with any of my dogs at home. I haven't taught any of these GSDs to sit. I much prefer a down myself. My boyfriend, on the other hand, loves to teach sit and shake. You know, your dog can't slap you on the head if it's in a down. ;)
 
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#28 ·
It doesn't have to be one or the other though. There's uses for either one depending on what you want. I like sit for when I want to stop and talk out on walks. Down has a certain amount of submission to it, and its just easier physically to keep them in that position. Its just more practical at home. My gripe with the article is the idea that its an unfair and unethical demand to put on your dog if they'd rather do something else.

She's making the point that you should always let the dog avoid what stresses them, even if its only taking a couple steps back.So bolting is no problem either if thats what the dog would rather do? I think they need to deal with it and they'll be better off.
 
#26 ·
My dogs always sit automatically and make eye contact. That is what works for me. Natty Boh, especially, enjoys sitting. He sits in a chair, like a human. I often look out the window and he is sitting in one of the deck chairs. He either sits in a chair at the table, or the one by the railing. He likes to be in a position to survey his kingdom. But then, there is nothing normal about Natty Boh.
 
#27 ·
My dogs always sit automatically and make eye contact. That is what works for me.
Me too. Sit, down, and focus are all behaviors I train as defaults. My dogs have learned that's what they need to do to get what they want so I just wait for it and they do it. To me, it's simpler to teach my dogs to DO something than to NOT do something, but maybe I just lack imagination. :) Whatever. It works for me.
 
#33 ·
Depends on what you are trying to do. If I have a wiggly dog that won't settle in front of me or it wants to jerk its head away I'll grip the dog by the hair and loose skin on both sides of the neck and move him into the position I want him to be in turn his head to face me and the more wiggly or melty he tries to get the more pressure I put on him to stay in the position I want. As he begins to relax and give into it I loosen the grip and go into a more petting while craddling his head on both sides move. I use that pressure to correct any attempt to pull away. I hate it when dogs can't steady their gaze or try to pull their heads away from my hands when I'm petting their heads or faces. I don't like the dog ending the interaction on his terms. It is similar to how dogs learn to squirm when you pick them up because people get tired of trying to hold the flailing dog so they put him down when he does it and that's how he learns to be put down, wiggle worm his way out of it. They only get put down when they are calm and relaxed.

When I want a dog relaxing and laying down I might tell him relax turn him on his side or back and use the pressure of my grip on his front two legs to get him to relax. Any attempt to wiggle free results in more pressure. Relaxation is met with looseness with that grip and it turns into petting instead. Basically its use of creative physical pressure to train the dog into going limp because that is way more comfortable to the dog than the alternative. That relaxation is also the point in which I will let the dog go. The relaxation becomes the key to escape for the dog. At first the dog thinks relaxation is the escape tactic but then it turns out the dog likes the position because it is relaxing and that just ends up being what he ends up doing in that position with that cue. Classical conditioning.

It would be way easier to watch me in action. I practice it with even a crazy puppy for 15 minutes a day for 2-3 days and I can pass the suckers right out in 5-10 minutes. Variations of that are how I can Manchurian candidate a dog into going from 0-100 and more impressively from 100-0 on cue.
 
#40 ·
I used Shirley Chong's method of teaching my dogs to relax. Super simple. Sit on the dog's leash and ignore the dog. Don't talk to it, or look at. Sit on the leash, while you work on the computer or read the newspaper. Do it every day for 30 minutes. It is basically self-taught. The dog learns to relax. My dogs will flop down and relax, wherever we are - vet office, whatever. It's awesome.
took mental notes on these 2 approaches
 
#34 ·
I used Shirley Chong's method of teaching my dogs to relax. Super simple. Sit on the dog's leash and ignore the dog. Don't talk to it, or look at. Sit on the leash, while you work on the computer or read the newspaper. Do it every day for 30 minutes. It is basically self-taught. The dog learns to relax. My dogs will flop down and relax, wherever we are - vet office, whatever. It's awesome.
 
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#50 ·
I used Shirley Chong's method of teaching my dogs to relax. Super simple. Sit on the dog's leash and ignore the dog. Don't talk to it, or look at. Sit on the leash, while you work on the computer or read the newspaper. Do it every day for 30 minutes. It is basically self-taught. The dog learns to relax. My dogs will flop down and relax, wherever we are - vet office, whatever. It's awesome.
Hmm ... I don't know who Shirley Chong is??? But Bailiff and Seltzer made me aware of "Sit on the Dog" and I did this for others.:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

I've only had occasion to use it once with a fear of people issue "Boxer" and it worked out great! I had seen that dog the week before and he was a mess! That an actual proper structured walk and I was stunned to find at the next even that he had been adopted?? :)


The part in bold ... thanks for that ... I never thought of using it in the home???
 
#35 ·
I call that sitting on the dog. That is a method too and is good for contextual relaxation. Lets say you wanted a dog to relax when you were at the computer nearby. You repeat that kind of thing. The physical pressure stuff is better when you're wanting a verbal cue to it because you want it fast.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Good article. If my dog is excited to greet someone friend family member -"sit on the dog" is the only thing that makes settle. Leash dog - sit down and ignore the dog.

I will always teach my dogs to sit as to just part of practicing training but don't need or would not would want to put him in a restricted tight bubble "sit stay "if I wanted him to greet someone- but for not greeting- yes as I would step in front talking to a person.

I suppose when watching the companion dog competitions - I noticed the judge had the owners "stand "and "stay "their dog and owners would walk a few feet away the judge would then go up to the dog and approach them and lightly pat the dog on the side. Now what would be the difference if the dog was at a stand or sit if was told to stay. What if the dog took a step backwards. Would that dog be disqualified. What would discern the dog from bolting or taking just step back. A "move away" command?
 
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