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CGC Woes

3K views 39 replies 12 participants last post by  Bramble 
#1 ·
So I have been taking a CGC prep class with my GSD Finn. He does very well with everything except the parts that involve strangers. We've been to four classes so far and he still does not want the instructors to touch him. They can approach and shake my hand and he will stay in a sit no problem. He will even take treats from them, but gives them the "look" if they move to touch him. He's overly unsure about them and won't accept that they aren't a threat.

During the last class we had to walk around through a crowd of two people. One woman, he knew, and a man. He growled at the man when he passed behind him. The instructor had them both move away immediately. Finn didn't move toward either, just let everyone know he was not comfortable. I felt like such a terrible owner :( Though right after that he went right up to the instructor who was using crutches, then she dropped board and he ran right up to it like do you want me to pick this up?

There is a CGC test once the class finishes, but I don't think we will take it. I cried a bit on the way home since I was really looking forward to taking the exam. I don't think it is fair to make him put him through that. He doesn't want people to approach and touch him and I don't think I can change that. So I guess we will just continue on with our Noseworks. He loves that class, is very comfortable in it, and does really well. At home he will bark at people who come, but I can toss his ball and he decides that means they are okay and ignores them or tries to get them to throw it for him. So if that is what he is comfortable with I can live with it.

Thanks to any who read just wanted to get that off my chest.
 
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#2 ·
How old is he? A little more maturity might help.

You might be better off working with a good trainer one on one for behavior mod because if your dog growls and the people are immediately moved away from him he is learning that growling works for him. Come back a d try CGC again in a few months after doing some work on the stranger danger
 
#3 ·
He is 16 months. I don't know if maturity will help or if this is just who he is.

Unfortunately I live in a very rural area and there just aren't any good trainers around. They fall into either the purely positive or yank and crank zone. I don't want to take him to someone and end up with him becoming truly reactive toward people.

In the class prior to mine a GSD had bitten a helper, just tore her sleeve, so I think the instructor and helpers were on edge and moved away because of that incident. I know Finn will key in on when people are nervous and that will make him more unsure. The class assistant is unsure around him and he knows and reacts to that.
 
#8 ·
Apollo was like this and he has gotten much better(he just turned 2). I had the same concerns as you and I still haven't done the test, but I've been watching him and his reactions. He has gone from growling at someone that is in his immediate area to allowing them there without issue. To date when people ask if they can pet him, I say no. He is completely fine with small kids running up to him, which is the most important thing to me, because kids can be unpredictable and do stuff an adult most likely won't.
 
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#4 ·
I took my dog thru CGC with an instructor who I strongly suspect was afraid of him. My dog was less comfortable being petted or handled by this guy than anyone before or since. I finally had to tell him "I really think you have to just confidently reach in there and do it" (this was about handling his feet). He kept being hesitant and my pup didn't like it.

If these people are afraid of your dog AND he is acting out and not improving, CGC class may be doing more harm than good for you.

Maybe work on engagement on your own, teach your dog to ignire everything and remain focused on you, prevent people from approaching. He might settle down after some time at this.
 
#7 ·
The one instructor is confident with him, though he still doesn't want her to pet him. He will walk up to her and accept treats, but no thanks on being handled. The other one is definitely more unsure and Finn knows it. I don't blame them for not want to push him. In there shoes I probably force it.

We have been working on our engagement. He is relaxed and focused with other people and dogs in the class moving past. He will glance at them, but not move toward them or get tense, then focus back on me. If he has a task to focus on he does well, but just sitting and having someone move in to touch him he is not comfortable with. I have taken him to dog friendly stores a couple times and he has been on alert, but still able to follow command and watch people pass. He definitely isn't relaxed, but I am going to keep exposing him.

Here's my advice....take the test.

1. use it as experience.
2. If you don't pass, at least you know what to work on.
3. If you do pass and you don't like the way things went, it's costs you nothing to not send in the paper.
4. You can take this test again and again and again. There is no penalty.

Don't think of it as the end goal. Think of it as a stepping stone that teaches you and your dog the skills needed to enjoy society. :)

I took the first test with Seger when he was young and didn't like how he did so never sent in the paper even though he passed.
Thanks Jax. I wasn't thinking of it that way. It is just difficult for me to go do something I feel like we won't succeed at our first go around. I know it is just a silly little piece of paper, but Finn is my first GSD and I wanted to do everything I could with him. Realizing he has an issue with strangers is a blow.

Bramble - are you over in the Marion area? Is that you I'm thinking of? If so, there are a few really good trainers in that area with a lot of GSD experience. At least 4 right off the top of my head.
I am about 2 hours away, near Rushford. I swear I am in a training desert sometimes. Lots of pet trainers, but none I feel have experience with GSDs.
 
#5 ·
Here's my advice....take the test.

1. use it as experience.
2. If you don't pass, at least you know what to work on.
3. If you do pass and you don't like the way things went, it's costs you nothing to not send in the paper.
4. You can take this test again and again and again. There is no penalty.

Don't think of it as the end goal. Think of it as a stepping stone that teaches you and your dog the skills needed to enjoy society. :)

I took the first test with Seger when he was young and didn't like how he did so never sent in the paper even though he passed.
 
#9 ·
I second Jax: Use the test as a diagnostic. If he passes, great. Maybe the evaluator will be more confident. Either way, it's good data to have on your dog. It can help you identify skills that you would like to build.

I can tell you that my dog is 2 1/2 and when she was 16 months, she may not have wanted someone to touch her. She tolerated it (we finished her BN, which does involve a sit for exam, before she was 2), but you could tell she didn't always love it. We just did our CGC last month, and the only component that even gave me pause was the part where you leave your dog for 3 minutes; the other interactions with strangers weren't an issue at all, she is generally neutral if not friendly/curious. On the other hand, her base temperament does sound as though it differs from your dog's in some key ways - "calm" is the reigning characteristic of her personality and she is rarely if ever on edge when out in public. So: Every dog is different, but it could be partly maturity. I'd certainly be proactive about trying to find a good trainer if you can, but maybe some added maturation could help you also.
 
#10 ·
Finn sounds a lot like my Samson.He does not want to be touched or get closer than two feet from anyone unless he initiates it.Maturity has toned down his paranoia.At 2.5 he will stand for exam in a class or ring atmosphere.Out and about he wants nothing to do with strangers.He backs away from any attempts at being touched and goes on with our walk or sits/lays next to me if I stop to talk.
He learned to tolerate being touched by me standing with him and holding his collar,next in front of him toe to toe,then a foot away,etc.He's not happy about it,but he learned it's not the end of the world either.
 
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#14 ·
Thank you Dainerra. Yes I know, but Finn does better when I leave if I put him into a sit or down vs. just walking off. I think it lets him know I am coming back for him ;)

We are rural also and have to drive a few miles to explore the civilized world.My guy wouldn't do well at a CGC test,it would just stress him out and it wouldn't help at all in improving his confidence.There are plenty of classes and competitions that we both enjoy that require no touching or very minimal touching.
Yup, it's about 20 minutes to get to the nearest dog friendly store. He loves his Nose Works class, and we may even be able to go to our first trial in the spring. He begs treats off the instructor, but at least he is polite and sits for them. We will definitely be continuing them.
 
#13 ·
We are rural also and have to drive a few miles to explore the civilized world.My guy wouldn't do well at a CGC test,it would just stress him out and it wouldn't help at all in improving his confidence.There are plenty of classes and competitions that we both enjoy that require no touching or very minimal touching.
 
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#15 ·
So just received an e-mail from the class instructor outlining her concern about his behavior during class. Which I understand because it concerns me as well since I know it is not the sort of behavior a temperamentally sound dog should display, and that upsets me. I don't know if it is behavior I have somehow caused, or if it is genetic. He was never this way as a puppy, and it is so upsetting to have a dog who is so unsure around people.

The instructor also suggested that it may be sexual aggression and that neutering could help, but also that if it is genetic shyness that it won't change things. I worry that is is the latter,and that I now have a dog will not be comfortable or trustworthy around people. I don't want to put someone at risk because he thinks strangers are a threat to him. I don't think he is ever going to be the sort of dog I could ever allow a stranger to pet and it breaks my heart. I worry this could one day escalate to an actually bite because someone didn't ask first.

I feel like if he is not a dog who I can trust around people that I don't have many options.
 
#16 ·
My male is genetically fearful. There will be no CGC test in his future. It sucks, and he requires management, but it's not the end of the world. He still goes to training, goes on walks and has a full life. If you feel you cannot keep people away from your dog, you can train him to wear a muzzle when out in public. Most people will not attempt to approach a muzzled dog, but on the off chance someone does, at least he won't be able to lay teeth on them. You can also buy a harness that says "DO NOT PET", which can be a deterrent to some people.

The most important thing about having a fearful dog, in my opinion, is understanding that they will require management. Sounds like you are there. Since he does so well at nose work, I would just keep doing that with him. At least you both enjoy that class! I know it is not ideal to have a dog with social limitations... but they can still have pretty great lives.
 
#21 ·
I am hoping it doesn't reach that point. I don't want to give up on the hope that maybe maturity and some work will get him past it, but I don't want to ignore that this could be who he is.


He is 16 months old. Just continue on. Take the test. If he displays anxiety when you hand him off for supervised separation, just don't hand him off. These dogs might be nervous this week on something, and then when the sky doesn't fall, they will be ok with it next week. I would go ahead and take the test, but when you are walking with him in a crowd say, pay attention, intervene if you think your dog is going to react badly. I doubt it. A growl is not a snap or a bite. But keep his head far enough away that you can prevent an accident if necessary.

It is good experience for you and for the dog.

Don't feel bad about it. You have an over-grown puppy and he is a little green around the edges. Continuing to take him out and not over-reacting and not allowing him to act badly and a little time, should solve this.

I, personally would not neuter for this reason.
Thank you for the encouragement Selzer. This is my first GSD, and I know I lack a lot of experience with the breed, and knowing what is just immaturity and what could be more serious. He was fine when I handed him off. I put him in a down and he'd stayed until I left the building. From what the assistant told me got up, went to the end of the leash, then moved back, sat, and stared at the door. I believe this is okay behavior for the actual test, he didn't try to interact with the assistant, but he didn't get upset. He actually maintained his sit when I came back in and walked up, I think he was trying to fool me into thinking that was where I'd left him, lol.

Looking back, I am beginning to think the instructor's reaction to his growl was a bit over the top. It was a low grumble, and he didn't stop moving, or key in on anyone. To me it felt like he was just letting everyone know he was uncomfortable. I did find out that in the class right before mine that a GSD had gone after a woman during the walk through a crowd portion. He bruised her hand and tore her sleeve. So I think everyone that was present for that was a bit on edge when Finn and I had to do that portion. Also found out that the class instructor does not do well with "aggressive" dogs. I can't help but wonder if this is contributing to his behavior.

I think I will just take the exam and see how it goes. Chances are we won't pass, but I will use it as experience. I also want to try to find a trainer with GSD experience. I'd really like to have someone knowledgeable evaluate him in person.

I was not planning to neuter until he was at least 2. I don't feel like this is sexual aggression. He doesn't have issues at home and I would think if it was hormonal it wouldn't just crop up only at class.

I feel like if he is not a dog who I can trust around people that I don't have many options.


Can you explain this more? Are you talking just about the CGC?


You basically have three options. Take the test as Selzer said. Don't take the test or wait and take it later on. Don't stress over it, don't blame yourself for what your dog is currently doing and don't blame your dog. Right now, at this exact point in time, it is what it is. Choose one option and then move forward. The more you stress over it, they more you're likely to see things incorrectly and the more you will stress and the dog will pick up on that and he will be more uncertain and stressed.


Maybe try taking some long walks with him without people around. Enjoy simply time with him, building your bond more and getting him and yourself to relax and enjoy the walks. After taking some time you can rethink the whole thing.
Deb I am worried this behavior could escalate to something more than just a hard stare or growling. I don't want to ignore it and maybe put him in a situation where he ends up biting someone.

Thanks Deb I think I will just go ahead and do it. After that I will see where we are at.

Sigh ... I suppose I should work on "Rocky's" GGC as "proof of concept" for "my" Bubble Dog Protocol??"

Rocky OS WL GSD (formerly H/A) ... in as much as I had no interest in using Humans as Guinea pigs for proof of concept. I don't know how he would do?? BUt he has "zero" issues at the vet and is allowed off issue in public and he is free to engage or not with the public as he sees fit.

I did not use "treats" or "distraction" I showed him what I wanted and he learned how to deal with it. My job was (for a time) to keep people out of his face ... and I am good at my job.

But ... "Bubble Dog Protocol" defined ... :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7969697-post13.html

No idea if he could pass the "CGC???" But you can do much better than this. :)
Oh the neutering thing ... people that have no idea what they are taking grab for that one. Rocky was a rescue and he was neutered when I got him at 7 months ...7 months later ... the first time I became "aware that I had a problem ... was at a holiday gathering when he greeted company with a cold hard stare and a low growl ... my blood ran cold and "Place" it was! Being "neutered" had "zero" impact on his "attitude" but you know results my vary?? :)

Thanks Chip. Usually I don't have anyone trying to pet him, unless he initiates. Sounds like Rocky has come a long way! Congrats :)
 
#17 ·
He is 16 months old. Just continue on. Take the test. If he displays anxiety when you hand him off for supervised separation, just don't hand him off. These dogs might be nervous this week on something, and then when the sky doesn't fall, they will be ok with it next week. I would go ahead and take the test, but when you are walking with him in a crowd say, pay attention, intervene if you think your dog is going to react badly. I doubt it. A growl is not a snap or a bite. But keep his head far enough away that you can prevent an accident if necessary.

It is good experience for you and for the dog.

Don't feel bad about it. You have an over-grown puppy and he is a little green around the edges. Continuing to take him out and not over-reacting and not allowing him to act badly and a little time, should solve this.

I, personally would not neuter for this reason.
 
#18 ·
I feel like if he is not a dog who I can trust around people that I don't have many options.


Can you explain this more? Are you talking just about the CGC?


You basically have three options. Take the test as Selzer said. Don't take the test or wait and take it later on. Don't stress over it, don't blame yourself for what your dog is currently doing and don't blame your dog. Right now, at this exact point in time, it is what it is. Choose one option and then move forward. The more you stress over it, they more you're likely to see things incorrectly and the more you will stress and the dog will pick up on that and he will be more uncertain and stressed.


Maybe try taking some long walks with him without people around. Enjoy simply time with him, building your bond more and getting him and yourself to relax and enjoy the walks. After taking some time you can rethink the whole thing.
 
#19 ·
Sigh ... I suppose I should work on "Rocky's" GGC as "proof of concept" for "my" Bubble Dog Protocol??"

Rocky OS WL GSD (formerly H/A) ... in as much as I had no interest in using Humans as Guinea pigs for proof of concept. I don't know how he would do?? BUt he has "zero" issues at the vet and is allowed off issue in public and he is free to engage or not with the public as he sees fit.

I did not use "treats" or "distraction" I showed him what I wanted and he learned how to deal with it. My job was (for a time) to keep people out of his face ... and I am good at my job.

But ... "Bubble Dog Protocol" defined ... :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7969697-post13.html

No idea if he could pass the "CGC???" But you can do much better than this. :)
 
#20 ·
Oh the neutering thing ... people that have no idea what they are taking grab for that one. Rocky was a rescue and he was neutered when I got him at 7 months ...7 months later ... the first time I became "aware that I had a problem ... was at a holiday gathering when he greeted company with a cold hard stare and a low growl ... my blood ran cold and "Place" it was! Being "neutered" had "zero" impact on his "attitude" but you know results my vary?? :)
 
#27 ·
Thank you so much Deb! I will.

Been there! Cept I called it "A cross ... I had to bare!" Rocky was a "Foster" and I kept him and then at 12-14 months ... serious freaking people issues developed!! Did I do this??? None of my other dogs American Band Dawg and Boxer/APBT and Boxers were like this??? I did the same things with "Rocky" that I did with them but different results?? I could have just called up "Dog Town Rescue" said it's not working out gave him back and looked for next "Boxer!" :)

But had I done that ... most likely there is an enormous amount of knowledge, I would not have learned?? Boxers are a "Piece of cake for me! I thrive on "Goofy!" Had I stuck with "Boxers" most likely today ... I would be on no "Dog Boards" I'd have "assumed" everybody knows this stuff??

Aww well ... these days ... "Rocky" is pretty boring (still not a fan of people in th, I freaked e home) but safe in public.
But ... "you" can make it so that your dog is not burden! You seem to be willing to work with the "Dog in Front of you." If he does not care for people ... that's fine! But you will be "Civil!" The willingness to understand that ... is all that is required! Those owners that get that still have there dogs those that don't "PTS." Of course there is always the occasional dog with a screw loose but for the most part those are rare.

The rest of "Rocky's" story is here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

Pretty much unanticipated "Proof of concept" and all I did aside from walks was the second link here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And the people in the home thing where I kept "Rocky" in "Place" and kept people out of his ... I did that ... but did not understand it was a "thing??" Baillif on here explained it to us and I took it and created this thread.:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

If you want to pass the CGC test those things are what I would do. And if your dog has some "Guinea Pigs" available ... your a leg up on me! Spend time on "Showing him you expect him to behave around people" and I think you'll do fine. :)

And no ... I don't use treats or distractions and I have done these exact same things with H/A and a Fear of People Boxer ... worked out fine. :)



If he is willing to do that "at all" then as my guy "Jeff Gellman" says "Lady your dog is not that bad!" Rocky has only stepped towards two people?? Hmm both military guys?? The first time it happened

... he did what he usually does, off leash if I stop and talk he steps five feet away and lays down and waits. I say nothing to him ... that is what he does. I stop and talk you job is to do "nothing!" But that time he broke "Place" and moved towards the guy?? In a non threatening manner, I will add but I freaked whirled around and commanded "Down!" We ... kinda freaked that guy out and he left ... my bad. :eek:

The second time we were at "Mavericks" gas station. Rocky was waiting for me outside. Usually it's fairly quiet but this time "people started showing up" and "Rocky was the center off attention!! Ex military guy starts to go inside and stops ... ask questions about "Rocky" who was at my side at the time. He ask to pet I say "yes" and I was stunned that "Rocky" actually like this guy ... usually he could care less?? I think he was an EX k9 handler or something?? We leave him I ... think great time to get the heck of Dodge but ... nope more fans show up!!!

So I stop and talk to someone else ... this time Rocky steps aside 5 feet as standard and waits. Some women comes out and instead of walking behind 116 lbs of OS WL off leash GSD, chooses to cut between me and my dogs teeth!! (Who does that???) I was freaking out but I remained calm and "Rocky" did nothing ... as he was taught. :)

It was a few years "after my rehab" effort before any of that transpired ... in his true "Bubble Dog" days ... he'd have not been allowed to be that close to the store doors or people ... I'd still just as soon say "No" as "Yes" but these days ... I'm not as "anal" about it. :)
Thank you for all the info Chip. I am encouraged by the fact that he will choose to approach people and check them out. We do have a lot to work on, but I hopeful he can learn to accept being pet.


Wow, it certainly makes it understandable why the instructor would call and suggest neutering, etc.

As for your pup, yes, other people's reactions to your dog MIGHT make them more on edge. Think about it, dogs read body language and can smell fear, and their suspicion is something breeders actually may breed for, that is, these dogs are bred to do guard work, police work, military, and a level of aggression, and a level of suspicion is not incorrect.

Remember when you were a kid, and doctor was coming at you with vaccinations. The doctors who were anticipating problems with giving you a shot, were the ones that made your skin crawl and whatever reaction you were going to have would start way before the needle was even visible.

Well, that is what this instructor is doing to your dog. Large, aggressive breeds are already not her forte, and she just had a dog like this one lunge and connect in the other class. So she is apprehensive, and your dog doesn't know nothing about what happened with the other dog, but he is reading loud and clear that she is up to no good, and is now trying to touch his paws and his ears. Not good MOM, SAVE ME!!!

Ok, well here's the rub. There are more signals coming through to your dog. My dogs cannot react badly to people even if they are fearful of them. Can't have that. They need to check out what their Susie's body language is saying, and what her smell is like, and if that is ok, they need to just tolerate this other person. Because my dogs have to be ok with groomers, ok with vet techs and vets, ok with trainers, and ok with potential puppy buyers. So if I am there, and I am talking to these people, my dogs have to ignore any apprehension, and allow them to pet, groom, stick shots in them.

And this where experience comes in. If you are relaxed but your trainer is apprehensive, your dog is getting mixed signals. But he trusts you and that is all that is necessary. If you are anxious about what your dog is going to do, and the trainer is apprehensive, well, the dog is getting mixed signals that are telling him to be worried, uneasy.

If you have a couple of days before this test, I would suggest calling up this instructor and pay for a private lesson. Tell her exactly what you want to do with her and your dog. Let's say the private lesson is 30 minutes long. Start by walking up to her and telling your dog to sit. Then talk to her, doesn't matter about what, what both of you think of Harry Potter or the Wizard of Oz, avoid opposing political views cause that could backfire. The point is, for your dog to become relaxed in the presence of this woman. Next, spend 5-10 minutes having her oversee you teaching your dog to give paw, During this portion, you will play with his ears, run a brush down his back and on his chest, and lifting each front paw. Keep it really relaxed, pay attention to the dog, and then stand up and while you are at the dog's side, trying "Give Paw" and have her touch each paw, touch the ears, run a brush on the back and on the chest.

If you noticed which the dog had the most issue with, i.e. lifting the paws, do that last. If he finds that the scary ogre lady doesn't hurt him with a brush, he might be less worried when she reaches for a paw. If you and she continue to have an easy conversation, while she is standing near the dog, she can pet his ears while talking to you, and then go into looking at each ear. Talking to you, she takes the brush from you and brushes the chest and down the back, and then hands it back to you. She reaches down for the paw, and wait if she is able to lift the paw with no word from you, don't worry about it, or you can say, "Give Paw."

If she is seriously nervous about it, it is better to not do this. What you are looking for is an opportunity for the dog to relax in the presence of someone not his owner. At the end, have her ask you, "May I pet your dog?" and you say, "Yes." Then she pets your dog starting under the chin, and comes up along the side of the head to the top, maybe saying something like, "What a good boy."

You have something tasty in your pocket and give it to your dog and you tell him what a good boy he is too.

Good luck.
I know the woman who was bitten. She knows Finn from our NW class so she is not nervous around him, but I believe the other helper and the instructors were very nervous.

During the last couple class neither the instructor nor the assistant have attempt to touch him. The will walk up, shake my hand, maybe give him a treat, then back off. This isn't really helping him progress. We are stuck at someone comes up, asked to pet, looks at him, gets nervous, and backs off.

I do want him to be able to trust me and ignore nervous people since being a GSD I know a lot people are going to be nervous around him. I believe this is important since there will be time like at the vet where he is goiing to have to be around people like this and I want him to realize they aren't a threat. Right now I know he is unsure, and with the people who approach him also being unsure it is not making him feel like them touching him is an good thing.

The private lesson sound like a wonderful idea! The actual test isn't until November so I have a few weeks. I think the instructor may be willing. Finn will go up to her an accept a treat, though I know he hasn't had the opportunity to really relax with her close by during class. If she doesn't feel comfortable doing that she may know of someone else we could do it with.

Thank you so much Seltzer!


Check out the IPO club and see if BH is something you'd consider instead of CGC. More obedience, but more realistic for working dogs.
Closest club is about an hour and a half away, not a drive I am comfortable with in the winter. I think I may look into that for next year, depending on how well we do over the winter.
 
#34 ·
By the way, what does he actually do if someone just walks up and pets him without standing there pussyfooting around?
No idea. Haven't had anyone try. He has been pet by everyone in his NW class, but that is after he has approached them.

I won't say that can't work with "some" dogs but I will say that if you have a dog with as I define it "Serious freaking people issues" that is highly risky!

No one that rehabs dogs with "serious freaking people issues" does that. A dog can accept treats and still bite someone! I'd define that as a form of "distraction" which I also did not do ie "Tricking" people into a dogs space. The dog is "focused on the treat!" Does not "notice" the person has closed the gap ... takes the treat and eats up and then suddenly discovers ... someone in his face "WTH" and "Snap!"

But yes ... I did use treats with my Boxer and American Band Dawg ... it seemed to make sense but ultimately ... treats were about me not them. They liked people anyway, treats really made no difference with them .. it was just who they were ie dogs that liked people.

When the chips were down and I "clearly understood" I now had a dog with serious people issues ... I chose not to go the treat or distraction route. It was a long while before I let "anyone" touch "Rocky" and when I finally did ... a GSD guy as it happened! I tried to ditch him cross the street but he was pretty persistent!

I explained the situation and what I was doing ... long walks lots of time "ignoring people" and no touch, and how Rocky stood calmly by may side, time and time again while I explained "why no you can't pet my dog." :

Ultimately I think I bored the crap out of (Rocky) with this routine ... kinda like "whatever" same old same old. He asked "well is he safe now???" I was stumped??? No one had ever asked that before??? I made quick calculations and ultimately said "yes!" And stepped aside "Rocky" accepted the guys touch without issue! :)

No treats, no distractions, he did as he was trained to do in the presence of "normal human interaction" ... your "job" is to do "nothing!" Worked out fine. :)

In all honesty .. I owe that unknown stranger a "Beer!" Had it not been for him ... most likely, I would have never realized ... I now had a dog I could relax with in public??"

He's still not that crazy about drop ins at home but he stays in "Place" without issue so ... whatever. :)
Yeah ... "apparently" I'm still doing the "key words" thing! :eek:

But ... give me some credit ... I did recognize it and make an adjustment without help. :p

The staring thing though ... yes that one caught me by surprise with "Rocky???" I'd not seen that happen before??? That person was at his face and was just doing something different (staring)?? He'd just gone from the ex Vet ... that he apparently ... actually luv'd and stepped towards ... extremely rare for him. As in I have seen that behavior exactly twice???

I was watching closely as I spoke to yet another person about him and I was "seeing something different???" I was getting ready to intervene but she broke "eye contact" still touching him but he went back to normal. He continued to let her pet him but the "whatever was gone??" At that point he decided to step aside from the hustle and bustle as it were.

Most certainly none of that was my plan?? I'll never be as comfortable with him around people as I was with my "Boxer" (dogs which are adorable are seriously obnoxious and nutty depending on your point of view. :p)

But over all it seems "training/rules" hold true ... he understands what "normal human interaction looks like" ... good enough! :)

Wobblers, and all he is quite the thing around around here ... does the breed proud. He'd have been a wonderful therapy dog ... cept for the part about not liking people and stuff. :p
Right from the start he has been willing to take treats from the instructor and assistant, but they have been hesitant to move beyond that. The instructor has admitted that they don't feel comfortable approaching him so I know that is not helping matters. We have a couple classes left so I think I won't have them attempt to pet him since they can not approach him with confidence.
 
#30 ·
I won't say that can't work with "some" dogs but I will say that if you have a dog with as I define it "Serious freaking people issues" that is highly risky!

No one that rehabs dogs with "serious freaking people issues" does that. A dog can accept treats and still bite someone! I'd define that as a form of "distraction" which I also did not do ie "Tricking" people into a dogs space. The dog is "focused on the treat!" Does not "notice" the person has closed the gap ... takes the treat and eats up and then suddenly discovers ... someone in his face "WTH" and "Snap!"

But yes ... I did use treats with my Boxer and American Band Dawg ... it seemed to make sense but ultimately ... treats were about me not them. They liked people anyway, treats really made no difference with them .. it was just who they were ie dogs that liked people.

When the chips were down and I "clearly understood" I now had a dog with serious people issues ... I chose not to go the treat or distraction route. It was a long while before I let "anyone" touch "Rocky" and when I finally did ... a GSD guy as it happened! I tried to ditch him cross the street but he was pretty persistent!

I explained the situation and what I was doing ... long walks lots of time "ignoring people" and no touch, and how Rocky stood calmly by may side, time and time again while I explained "why no you can't pet my dog." :

Ultimately I think I bored the crap out of (Rocky) with this routine ... kinda like "whatever" same old same old. He asked "well is he safe now???" I was stumped??? No one had ever asked that before??? I made quick calculations and ultimately said "yes!" And stepped aside "Rocky" accepted the guys touch without issue! :)

No treats, no distractions, he did as he was trained to do in the presence of "normal human interaction" ... your "job" is to do "nothing!" Worked out fine. :)

In all honesty .. I owe that unknown stranger a "Beer!" Had it not been for him ... most likely, I would have never realized ... I now had a dog I could relax with in public??"

He's still not that crazy about drop ins at home but he stays in "Place" without issue so ... whatever. :)
 
#32 ·
Chip I was referring to Brambles previous post where she said her dog was taking treats from the instructors when approached.Dogs won't accept food when stressed.Therefore,being approached by people doesn't make the dog tense.But eye contact and staring might.I wasn't recommending anything.Slow down and read carefully please.

Sometimes it's helpful to think about and pinpoint exactly what preempted a reaction.
 
#33 ·
Yeah ... "apparently" I'm still doing the "key words" thing! :eek:

But ... give me some credit ... I did recognize it and make an adjustment without help. :p

The staring thing though ... yes that one caught me by surprise with "Rocky???" I'd not seen that happen before??? That person was at his face and was just doing something different (staring)?? He'd just gone from the ex Vet ... that he apparently ... actually luv'd and stepped towards ... extremely rare for him. As in I have seen that behavior exactly twice???

I was watching closely as I spoke to yet another person about him and I was "seeing something different???" I was getting ready to intervene but she broke "eye contact" still touching him but he went back to normal. He continued to let her pet him but the "whatever was gone??" At that point he decided to step aside from the hustle and bustle as it were.

Most certainly none of that was my plan?? I'll never be as comfortable with him around people as I was with my "Boxer" (dogs which are adorable are seriously obnoxious and nutty depending on your point of view. :p)

But over all it seems "training/rules" hold true ... he understands what "normal human interaction looks like" ... good enough! :)

Wobblers, and all he is quite the thing around around here ... does the breed proud. He'd have been a wonderful therapy dog ... cept for the part about not liking people and stuff. :p
 
#37 ·
I have never had others feed my dogs treats to get them to accept them. I had a young dog barking and lunging toward me while chained -- I was at a friends home with permission. I went to my trunk and got some chicken chips.

I went up near the dog and started talking to the lady who was out there. I started tossing treats toward the dog. The dog came out from under the car (where he went, when I came back), and began eating the treats. Then I started dropping them by my feet. He started eating them. I just kept talking to the owner. Pretty soon he was taking them from my hand, and then I was petting him. Nice dog.

But my own dogs, when I am out with them. I want them to look to me to get a treat. I really don't want other people giving him treats, with one exception. If the vet does something scary or prolonged to a young dog, I want whoever did the procedure, tech or vet to return to the room with treats and give my dog a treat. They say you remember the first part, and the last part best, and I want to leave on a good note.

But for just socializing, if I have treats. I want to give a treat when my dog has shown courage. Like, if they were startled by something new (elephant gun from next door), but they recover, and step forward to check it out, then I will give a treat. But usually, there are no treats, because I don't put them in my pocket. I'd have to go get one, and by then, the moment is over. Praise is fine. Got to let them known when they are showing courage, when they have recovered and are stepping forward. But the treat comes from me. For people, I tell my dog, "Say Hello" and this means the dog can go forward and sniff the person. Sometimes I will allow the dog to hang around the new person, even allow pets. But often, I will stop the encounter after the dog sniffs, by saying "Good girl, Good Hello" and then I will tell her to heel again, or sit, usually we walk on. They do not need to be petted by everyone.
 
#39 ·
I don't usually have other people give my dogs treats. Exception is his NW class since the instructor uses them during hides he goes up to her and sits for a treat at the end of class. Which I don't mind since he is polite about it.

During our CGC class I think a big problem in the instructors don't know how to build on what he will offer.

Take the time, drive to Marion. Go once a month, once every 2 weeks, once every 3 weeks. Whatever you can. They will teach you how to build a relationship with your dog. It's a big piece of training that most pet trainers have no idea how to do.
Thank you Jax. I think I will contact them and at least discuss our issue.
 
#40 ·
So we had another class last night and things went really well! My NW instructor was assisting and she was able to come up shake hands with me, pet Finn, touch his feet, brush him, and touch his ears. I could see he was a bit unsure at first, but she went slowly, but didn't hesitate, and he just went oh okay I can handle this. No growling either during walk through a crowd, the crowd did stand still. Did a full three minutes of leaving the building and he was fine about it, and he did well with all the other obedience portions as well. Just need to polish up our loose leash walking a little bit.

He also got to show off a bit at the end of class. The instructor brought some plastic tubs to demonstrate some body awareness exercises and some little place mats for teaching place. Finn put his front feet right up on the tub and pivoted around it like we do at home. I also had him find it with just his back feet, and sit on it. He was so excited and focused and just plain having fun. He made me laugh with the place mat. I told he place and he went over and then looked up like seriously on this tiny thing? I had to laugh and was like I know it's tiny, told him place again, and he laid down and looked up at me like there see it doesn't even fit me. I was so proud of him and glad to see him enjoying himself.

We still have a lot to on, but it was so nice to see him succeed when give a chance. I am contacting trainers and I think some help from someone with experience in this area will help us a lot!

Thank you to all who have replied with your kind words and advise. I will be posting updates as our journey progresses :)
 
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