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Advice Needed - Is it me or the dog?

4K views 31 replies 11 participants last post by  Chip18 
#1 ·
I have a 3 1/2 year old male German Shepherd who weighs 103 lbs. Has always been a big baby to me, but definitely sees my husband as the alpha. A couple weeks ago he growled at me while I was trying to get something off his nose which by the way his nose stays beat up from all his shenanigans. I have always played with him, he would bring me a ball & I would try to get it out of his mouth to throw it. Guess I was a little nervous from his earlier growl, and thought he growled when I tried to take the ball so I hollered and put my hands & feet up in a protective position. He backed away and gave me the longest cold hard stare. Now I am nervous with him and was wondering if he can sense that. He still seems to be doing most things the same, but seems distant from me and not the loving dog he was. I do think most of the problem is me and not him, but wondered if he can sense me being afraid of him and how I can get over this. I want to believe he will not hurt me, but he is so large it does unnerve me. I have quit petting him unless he comes to me & solicits it where I used to love on him all the time. Can he sense my uneasiness? He also stares at me a lot like he's trying to figure me out. Any advice? Thanks for your time.
 
#2 ·
Yeah,he's unsure because you're unsure.It's normal for him to growl if you are messing around inside of his very tender nose.That was an OUCH you were hearing.The growl while wrestling the ball out of his mouth was him reacting to your fear.If you are afraid it makes him afraid.
You and your husband can teach him a drop it command so no more wrestling things away from him.Play with two toys so you can trade him each time he brings it back to you.When he drops one toy give the command,praise and immediately toss him the other toy.

You could practice obedience commands with him to help build your confidence back up.Try not to baby him too much.If he learns he can manipulate you by making a noise he will happily do it often:)
 
#4 ·
Often what is seen as caring and respectful in the Human world, is seen as submissive weakness in the dog world. In the dog world, the upperlings solicit affection and petting from the underlings - not the other way around. So by our standards, not giving affection unless the dog comes to your for affection would be respectful of his space, and shows that you care for his needs. In his world, he sees you as someone below him, that he gets to decide when he wants attention and affection, and you deliver each time he asks for it.

So first thing is ignore him. YOU ask for attention and affection from him! That is what leaders do. They ask, they get. In your case, I would start to re-gain leader status by completely ignoring him for a few days. This is a good article that explains things and gives you a step-by-step process on how to go about gaining leader status with a dog such as yours.

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=petdogsl;id=5;url=http://k9deb.com/socialis.htm

Often, with some dogs, less is more.
 
#9 ·
Tulip68 I'm sure you will get back on track with your boy. There is one thing that I think is worth noting: "The cold hard stare" That stare is not weird, it is a look that a dog gives to indicate how he is feeling. In no way do I wish to frighten you. But often times humans inadvertantly ignore or misinterpret a dogs signal.

Please see that stare for what it is: a cold hard stare. It may be due to confusion or anger or whatever but don't dismiss it as nothing.

I have seen that stare many times in my boy when he acts aggressively towards another dog. My boy will not look me in the eye or even turn his head towards my face when he has that look. I don't think he would dare to. Not because he is afraid of me, but because he respects me.

I'm not a trainer or anything but this is how I have come to interpret "the cold hard stare"

Castlemaid, that link answered some of my own questions.
 
#5 ·
Yeah I would say he can sense what you're feeling. Don't be afraid of him from that growl, you said his nose is usually beat up so it was most likely very sore, the growl is actually a good thing because it is a warning, he didn't want to hurt you but he also didn't want you touching his nose, he could have bit you but didn't because he didn't want to hurt you, the growl was him saying "my nose is sore please don't touch" type of thing. I don't believe you have anything to worry about with him hurting you at all, its most likely him feeling that you are uneasy, he may or may not know that it is with him or thats its something else.
For the growl you might have heard, my day will let out a ta or a throaty noise like a growl when she is playing tug, could that have been it?
Spend some time walking him, keep him beside you and do some positioning work (sit down stand) randomly during you walk, keep him beside you while walking (if you don't already) learn to trust him and to have him trust you again, bring your husband along for some peace of mind so you aren't nervous while working on everything. I'm sure it was a scary when he let out the growl, but dogs don't suddenly turn on their people so you shouldn't worry about him being a danger to you. the staring at you part is a little weird, it probably isn't a big deal and he is most likely trying to figure you out or might worried that you are all the sudden going to yell at him, could be either one. Just bond with him again, while still making sure you are the leader over him an things should go back to the way they were
 
#7 ·
I also agree with what Castlemaid said!^, ignoring him for a few days, and calling him over to give him affection. I had never heard of that before but it makes total sense. and after that few days do some obedience work and such, be the one to feed him if your husband usually does it.
 
#8 ·
Thanks so much to everyone for the advice. Guess a little time heals everything. He still comes (well most of the time) when I call him. I know he is wondering what in the world is going on because I went from loving all over him all the time to semi-avoiding him. Makes me so sad because I love him to pieces! If he does bring me a toy, I wait until he drops it and takes a step back, and then I throw it for him. He does sit when I tell him to. Also, I am 95% of the time the one that feeds him and 100% of the time the one he gets out of bed during the night to let him out and he is still doing that. That's why I do think it is more me than him. Again, thanks for giving me hope!
 
#10 ·
One question, you said you notice that he stare at you often. When you make eye contact with him, does he blink or wink? This may sound funny to you, but when a dog stares at its human, they often will blink or wink as a gesture of affection. It is done with soft eyes.

Also, my boy does stare at me with intensity when playing tug (which could be misinterpreted as a warning stare if I did not know my dog as well as I do) and some dogs also growl during a game of tug.

Just a couple extra things I thought of.
 
#11 ·
OK so I thought we were making some progress in getting back to normal. Then last night I was lying in my husband's (Axle's Alpha) lap on the couch and Axle was lying at my feet. He decided he wanted to lay in my husband's lap too & came down the back of me & laid down. I didn't have any room so I moved to the end of the couch Axle was on & where I usually sit. I could feel him looking at me so I patted the couch beside me and asked him to "come lay by Mama". The way he looked at me sent fear chills down my body and being afraid he could sense this I just looked away. After about five minutes he got off the couch. I just can't seem to get a grip on being afraid of him. And really for no reason since he's only for sure growled at me when I messed with his sore nose. He just seems to have no respect for me . . . like he just tolerates me. Now I am wondering if that will be my & his relationship from now on is one of mere tolerance for each other. :crying: Of course, during the night he came & got me out of bed to let him outside. I think he is dominating me and I don't know how to end this behavior being afraid of him.
 
#13 ·
I think more detail in what you have done differently that caused some progress would help others to give more advice. Also, what is your husbands reaction? With dynamics such as this, I think all in the family need to be involved. Especially the person who the dog deferred to for social guidance.

It could be that if you had changed the rule that he not get on the couch and you did this successfully for a month ( the time from your last post til now) and then you bent the rule, would cause confusion and conflict in him. This is just an example since you have not given any details.

IMO, I would have told the dog to stay as soon as he attempted to get up from the spot at your feet. Also just something to think about, but why would you inconvenience yourself by scotching over for him?

I do allow my boy on our couch but I sure as heck will not give up my own comfy spot for him. I wouldn't give it up for my kids either unless they were sick or needed special treatment but not under normal conditions.

One other thing, I would not wait for him to come ask you to bring him out to potty. At 3yrs old, you can take him out before you go to bed and he should be fine. Again don't inconvenience yourself, work around you schedule.

The being afraid part is a difficult emotion to get over and not so easy. I think you would bennifit with the help of your husband. Set yourself up for success. Keep practicing what you did do to improve things and expand on those things with the help of dh to reinforce it if necessary.

You keep referring to the way he looks at you. There is a training method called "LAM" Look at me - it may be helpful to you also as it trains a dog to look at his owner in a positive manner.

Again, I hope for the best for you.
 
#12 · (Edited)
That is the problem, dogs can read you like an XRay so if you are thinking in your head "he is going to bite me" you are making it 100x worse. If they sense that weakness and he is dominante he will move forward. Your body language is huge and you have to always be calm and confident. You have a classic case of developing aggression but the good news is you can turn it around now. Especially since he was normal for 3 years it is definitely you. I highly recommend watching episodes of the dog whisperer just to learn how to project the correct body language around the dog so that will stop happening. He also needs exercise, discipline and affection in that order. I can't stress enough how important that foundation is and on the show he has helped MANY dogs with your same exact issues. it is very good to get the basics down so you can understand how to truly train a dog so that will never happen, your state of mind and what YOU do is key. Do not try his advanced techniques since each individual dog depends on their circumstances but the BASICS are the same for every person and can go a long long way and it sounds like if you step on now before this professes with the proper calm and assertive body language he can go back to normal. Exercise is also paramount. You must also walk your dog PROPERLY (him beside you or behind you) this teaches him to follow you and makes him become a FOLLOWER because right now he thinks you are the follower. It is crucial in helping him trust you and listen to you in everything at life. Walks are more important for this aspect rather than exercise, real exercise should be done off leash at a park so he can release pent up energy on a routine basis. He needs a "job". But again this is all basic foundation stuff.
 
#14 ·
Over the past month I just worked on rebuilding my relationship with him. I did a lot of the NILIF (not as consistent as I should be, but working on it). I also made an extra effort to go outside and play with him one-on-one and walked with him regularly. However, I do not leash walk him because we live in a very rural area and I stay on our property with him.

I am overall a very nervous person so my husband thinks I am reading way too much into this and worrying over nothing. He says he cannot see a change, but he doesn't always pay attention. He did ask why, since I told him that through my reading we had done many things wrong in his upbringing, did I move for him. He calls me the "sister" and said that's how Axle views me. I told him he was right and next time I would not move & he said "next time he may not like it". His overall opinion is that its me and not the dog.

I was doing so much better, but still have not been able to bring myself to approach him to pet him if he is lying down. If he is up, I am not afraid to approach & pet him. When I call him to me, he only comes if he wants to. But that is nothing new as he has always been that way. He also gets super excited when my husband, my son, my father-in-law & my mother come into the house. But with me he shows no emotion whatsoever . . . just looks at me like "oh its just you".

About the nightly bathroom break, he usually goes all night long. But occasionally (one a week at the most), he comes to get me. Doesn't even try to get my husband or son up, just me. He also, when he wants to go out during the day, goes to the door & looks squarely at me to get up & let him out. I know I am letting him call all the shots and probably need to change this, but how?
 
#15 ·
Hmm seems I'm late to the party?? But ... I wanted to say, it would seem lots of us have seen that "Cold Hard Stare??" In my case it was directed at company accompanied with a low growl?? Changes in meeting company were made, worked out fine. :)

First a question, I scanned and maybe I missed it?? Is the dog Crate Trained???
 
#18 ·
He should not even be on the couch but on the floor or crated. And he doesn't have any right to curl up against you. Only leader dogs can pull this off to their subordinates. Your are not his "momma" but his possession currently. That "momma" phrase always makes me cringe. You have given him the dominant role over you. Time to readjust the dynamics. Your husband cannot do it; it has to come from you. So off the furniture, no initiative, ignore him, let him work for his goodies. You decide where, when, what and how in everything he does. Get on one page with your husband and also forget about the Alpha stuff; outdated.
 
#19 ·
Chip, I'm holding off replying for the moment on other things except the ops' fear.

Tulip, kudos to you for working on this. As I stated, fear is a difficult thing to over come. I was terribly afraid to enter an obedience class with Sonny and his aggression/reactivity. Not afraid of Sonny but scared stiff of the many other dogs. To the point of my heart racing. My dh had never joined me in any of Sonny's lessons. Time issues or what not on his end. But I finally was able to let him know how much I needed him to be there. maybe you can have a similar discussion with dh.

As for the waiting at the door, heck I think most dogs do this. My boy does it a lot. If I'm free, yup we go out but he has to come to me to be collared and leash and sitting nicely while I do it. If he doesn't come to me, and that has happened, leash gets put away and I get busy doing something else. Simple.
 
#23 ·
As for the waiting at the door, heck I think most dogs do this.
Just to this point ..."NO" absolutely not. Dogs get killed, hit by cars, people get attacked and dogs run away all the time. Simply because they don't respect "Thresholds."

My very first "ambush predator attack/attempt" was by a dog that busted pass his owners and out or threw the front screen door???

Not sure on that detail ... I was busy protecting my puppy. I've used a makeshift SLL to wrangle up and walk "Door Buster's back to there owners in my neighborhood.

If you don't have that problem ... then your better than most. Don't underestimate yourself and don't over estimate others. Sounds like you're doing well ...Good Job. :)
 
#20 ·
Sometimes the truth hurts, huh? I know this is what I have to do! And I totally realize he is dominating me. My personality is one of wanting everyone and everything to like & love me so I do whatever to achieve this to the point of being a doormat in many situations. I am trying entirely too hard to make him adore me like he does my husband and I need to face the fact that it just isn't going to be! I am going to have to change my thinking of "if I do everything he wants me to do he will LOVE me" when all I am doing is losing his respect as his leader. Thanks for the dose of reality.
 
#21 ·
Once you understand the dog society, the ways they learn, you will start to get a good relationship with him and admire them as the animals they are. Glad you take everyone's advice well. Keep us posted. If you are consistent, you will see a quick change. There is a possibility that he will not easily give up his role but you need to stay the course and then succeed. Then it is important not to give in when he is doing much better or he will take advantage of the loop holes.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Hey Chip, I replied under the assumption that op dog is waiting at a closed solid door. And I think many dogs do this. Maybe not but my dog has since a pup as that was his indication that he needed to go potty.

But you do bring up a valid point especially open or screened doors. From the get go, I trained mine not to go out without my say so but haven't proofed him with strange cat (we have two and he's fine with them) in the yard, and I wouldn't take that chance.
 
#29 ·
Tulip , you and your boy are going to realize a completely and amazing change in your relationship once your rules are understood. I know this is just my opinion but as with other posts, I'm the one who basically established all the rules and expectations and the rest of the family just enjoys him. Guess who owns his heart. Lol. But that is not to say that he loves doing specific things more with others than me. He would much rather go for a ride with my son and leave me in the dust. Bye bye see you later:grin2:
 
#31 ·
Threshold needs to be trained?

This is a breed well known for being territorial and for human aggression. I think to put a dog in that position in the first place is very high risk and irresponsible.

I am not saying that some German Shepherds won't be fine with that. I am saying to plant that seed in JQP's head that this breed is an ideal candidate for such a "trick" is very reckless and dangerous. Most people can't teach their dogs to walk on a loose lead. I don't think it should be suggested that they teach their dogs not to go through an open door under distraction.

I don't think it is fair that utility personnel, mailmen, UPS deliverers, or children selling Girl Scout cookies should have to be forced to deal with a German Shepherd at an open door.

It was mentioned that dogs run away. German Shepherds? If you have a GSD that runs away because it could, I think the problem runs deeper than not knowing a threshold.

If you need your dog to not bolt out the door during a particular situation, a simple sit, stay should suffice and that is something that most dogs are trained to a degree of reliability, even among pet people, and some people use place, but to use a threshold command such as when they are carrying in bags of groceries and especially when they are not focused on their dog, is not something I think should be advised.
 
#32 ·
OK ... data dump coming.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html



And some insight??? I can't say that I have ever been afraid of my own dogs?? But I do get the feeling panicked bit. But you still have to remain calm despite that. For me it happens on the very rare occasions that I take Rocky to a "Dog Park! Our Dog Parks are pretty low on "Dogage" as it were. Usually one or two (Dogs) when I go. I prefer that any dogs be in the other fenced in area. But on this occasion, there were two dogs a Female GSD and a Basset Hound ... Park worked dogs. Well they are on the other side of the Park so yeah we'er good.

Everybody off leash and as soon as they spot Rocky ... they GSD leading the way, casualy stroll over to Rocky to check him out!!! I'm sweating bullets (they dogs have done nothing) but this is uncomfortable ground for me. The GSD, comes in to check Rocky out, I made a half hearted attempt to block her and she deftly side steps me to check out my dog?? The dogs meet, Rocky passes muster and off she goes. :)

So Rocky and I continue to walk the grounds, that's when I notice the Basset Hound is still there, following us??? We walk he follows, I go this way and that way still walking and he being all Basset Houndy is not gonna get shaken of the trail!! Finally I relent and stop .Rocky stops they meet and once again ...nothing happens!! So yeah well trained dog and all, Rocky had never actually been in contact with another dog for years! I don't do other dogs but he was taught to ignore other, dogs and knows how to behave around them. And that is exactly how he behaved, my quiet panic notwithstanding ... he did as he had been trained.

My point of all this?? I know how to train dogs I'm good at but if I step out of my comfort zone engaging with non pack members ... I do kinda sorta quietly freak out .. I just don't let the dog know. I'm also a great actor apparently. :p

So ... what does all of this mean for you ... well here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

And I'm going to pull stuff out starting here:
https://stickydogblog.com/2012/10/11/i-just-got-a-rescued-dog-what-do-i-do/

That would be how you "start over."

And I'll add, as others have stated "this" dog needs to be off the couch. And I would add ... sigh in ... a Crate (more on that in a bit.) And when he is indoors "NO Free Roaming in the House." Indoors he should be in a Crate or in Place. And once trained the only words you need to say to him are "Crate and Place."

Details on that are in the thread. I know you said you don't use a Crate ... but maybe it's time to start?? The Crate is also an exercise on setting rules and boundaries. "Kennel up" watch the clips, I would absolutely have "this" dog sleeping in his Crate but maybe possibly you could settle for training the process, feeding him in the Crate and settle for "Place or Outside" and No free roaming in the house?? Not what a "Pro would do but I think that could work ...wiggle room as it were.

And next in order and absolutely mandatory is the "Place Command" and 'Sit on the Dog" :
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

I think by and large it's all explained in that thread.

And I know you said "your property" don't need a leash. I kinda sorta thing that is a mistake. Your dog does not need you to walk on his own, he does you need to go on a structured walk. You set the condition and the pace not him. Walking your dog on structured walks is how you can help to build a bond between you and your dog!

I can say been there done that with that one, because I had "No Bond" with my GSD ...he had seriously ticked me off ...( another story) at the time. So I settled on rules structure and discipline. Which ... had I been doing in the first place "we'd" have not had "issues." :eek:

There is a clip in there on loose leash walking. And of course I have more. The strict discipline does not need to be forever but 30 to 90 days would most likely be idea?? And the goal for a solid "Place Command" would be two hours. Also you'll want to keep a Drag Leash on the dog for use indoors and while training "Place." You don't want to be laying hands on the dog as it were. And ideally no collars and certainly no leashes in the Crate.

So if you do want to "start over with this dog" this is pretty much what it would like. And see the very last link for details I may have missed. Dogercise and Bethany, they changed there name but the link still works.


If you sent the dog away for a board and train these are all things trainers would do with him and they don't know him. And yes ...when you see it all in one place it looks like a lot, but it's all simple. I think you can do this but of course it's your call. In any case ask questions and Welcome Aboard ... sorry it's a bumpy ride. :(
 
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