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lone Ranger 12-02-2013 07:14 PM

Interesting problem I had not anticipated owning three Black WD GSDs in my wolf pack
I own two males (13 months) and a female from a Von Forell line (9 months).. I have to choose between two larger males as companions daily to work and about town, or the Bitch Shaka. If any of you are interested, it is an interesting problem I had not anticipated in owning this many GSDs...

On my 30 acre horse property: I have two four month older Males now 13 months, Black GSDs, good lines, but a problem with separating them. They both have to go, or it leads to jealousy fights if one goes or one gets to stay inside.. Being of equal size and brothers (bought one, the other given to me when it needed a new home but both brothers) they growl and fight if separated as if jealous for my attention.

Look, they get along fine when travelling as a pair and living as a team with me being the Alpha Male... But two in my office and in some travels is a bit too much. It comes down to that the civilized dog in my office and in town is the Bitch Shaka. No where near as intimidating as potentially a PPD, but she is short haired where the Dogs are medium (glamour) coats and the dogs shed a bit more and scare people... The two of them is a lot of dogs in my office, both at over 40 kg and maturing.

In a bad area, or travel interstate with my horses, camping in unknown showgrounds? Then the Boys are an undefeatable team.. But round town and day to day common office times and Shaka is far easier to manage... I intend to take the others some days, but Shaka most days to work..

"Caesar" is more dominant, bigger boned, and may take over as Alpha Male of the two but the other is not backing down even though losing the fights. It may not be a problem in the future but right now it is still a challenging the dominance routine. Right now they are too closely matched and battle for my attention. Shaka the Bitch, is smaller and not as much of a deterrent if I am closing the Factory late or opening early at work... The Boys are a bit too much together, for civilization, should I work on the jealousy bit and demand they get along? When Shaka goes into season I will have to bring the Boys or a single Dog like Caesar. Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

Best regards from Australia. lone Ranger

d4mmo 12-02-2013 07:22 PM

If they are really Von forell line then speak to kris about this. I can honestly say not many people in the world know gsd's as well as he does. He will look after you

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JakodaCD OA 12-02-2013 07:42 PM

I'm not sure you can 'demand' them to get along. Frankly, I would be separating them and work on being able to 'do that' without a problem.

It actually may be more of a problem in the future and one may end up dead if they are fighting badly.

And I think having a female around that comes into heat may be a problem between the two of them as well?

I really don't have any suggestions for you, if me, I'd be separating the males and working them individually .

A male I had once, reintroduced to his brother when they were 12 weeks old, they hated each others guts, they could never be together or there was surely a fight going to happen. (I didn't have both of them, just one)

I would speak to your breeder , maybe they can give you some training tips/suggestions.

MaggieRoseLee 12-03-2013 10:56 AM

Will the breeder take one of the males back? You did your best and MOST OF US wouldn't have even been able to do as well as you have with 2 littermates like this.

I know my household isn't set up to separate 2 dogs for the rest of their lives. Neither am I prepared for expensive vet bills or the death of a dog when I knew there were problems that weren't getting better.

Work with the breeder and do what's best FOR THE DOGS, it's not a personal failure to keep your dogs safe and happy.

Wild Wolf 12-03-2013 11:04 AM

I have watched the dynamics of dogs for years, and I can say pretty confidently that if both males want Alpha position over the other you could have a lot of issues between them for their entire lives. In the end they are animals, and males fight, it is reality... hope you can figure something out. I agree with seeing if the breeder will rehome one of the males for you - way too much stress to have to live with, ESPECIALLY if you are out in the wilderness... what if a BAD fight breaks out and you have to access to a veterinarian? Not an easy thing to live with.

pets4life 12-04-2013 12:43 PM

your in tact female can cause serious issues even if shes not in heat

WHen my female was intact and 2 dominant type dogs were around her they went bat crap insane and did things to each other they normally would not do while she gloated in it, she just could never mix with 2 unfixed males unless one was submissive.

I have never seen two males fight like 2 females (blood and ripping all over) though but i mean i am sure they have and do

lone Ranger 12-05-2013 12:32 AM

Thank you for all your diverse answers... A few updates, add ins:

d4mmo: Only the Bitch Shaka is a Von Forell line Bitch... A Police Officer that worked with them, was given a Bitch when he left, Shaka's mother... The Sire is an award winning PPD Dog... Anyway, She shows Von Forell traits, like Alpha Bitch, first to respond, first to bark, quite a different build and temperament, and I think I really lucked out..

On the two Brothers, lately Wolf Caesar has taken the Alpha Male role more and more. Poor Wolf Ali has always been more of a People Dog, and I cannot give him away as he is 13 months and dead attached to me. He gets along better playing with the Bitch, and is beaten up by her and my old other Show dog fixed Bitch Tonka.. You have heard of "GreyWolf", well Ali, he is my "GayWolf"... :rofl: He is more submissive and this may work out yet. I am waiting for the 12 month hip and elbow results scores to see who is my Stud Dog. Wolf Ali is not really suitable for phenotype, in that he looks a bit Wolf throwback, orange eyes, longer snout, a crook in his tail, he looks scary but acts like Gaywolf in like one of the girls... :D:rofl: And is pretty laid back.. Unless his scores are significantly better, my Stud Dog will be Caesar who is more of the Black Classic WD GSD in conformation... It may even be that I will neuter Wolf Ali if his scores are bad, and that should end the dominance question... He rarely challenges Caesar now..

As to the comments on Shaka in heat, thank you, I have a bullet proof embedded six foot fence Bitches Pen She will live in most of the Season time, that is 100 Metres away. Interestingly she had her first heat before 8 months. I hope to breed her on about her third heat at about 2 years old, but maybe will wait even longer..

Thank all of you for your comments, all good, and all taken on board... If I am not going to breed Wolf Ali, then if he is cut, that should end the battle tendency altogether won't it?

Kind regards from Australia... lone Ranger "Dancing with Wolves"

Arlene/Archer 12-05-2013 04:12 AM

You could rehome Ali to another person and save all the trouble, I doubt he's so bonded to you he won't bond with another human, most people think their dogs can't exist without them, until the dog does quite nicely with the right person. Furthermore, you don't own 'wolves' you own dogs, with a very different social structure, so there's no need for anyone, including Caesar to be 'Alpha', and Alpha in wolf packs denotes breeding pair, not some kind of pack leader. Ali sounds like the most stable of the males, certainly the one who feels he had less to prove by fighting. Lastly, your use of 'gaywolf' is really offensive and not as hilariously funny as you seem to think it is. I would have hoped –on this forum at least–people would desist with this kind of lazy stereotyping.

JakodaCD OA 12-05-2013 07:51 AM

Neutering won't stop the aggressive tendencies nor stop your other dog from bullying him. I predict one day one of them is going to get seriously hurt or killed / neutered or not.

And I agree with Arlene above.

It's really not fair to let Ali to get his butt kicked for just "being". Dogs are pretty adaptable and I think Ali would probably adjust just fine to another home better suited for his situation.

And just as an FYI, dogs can and have mated thru a fence:)

Arlene/Archer 12-05-2013 08:12 AM


Originally Posted by JakodaCD OA (Post 4615385)

It's really not fair to let Ali to get his butt kicked for just "being". Dogs are pretty adaptable and I think Ali would probably adjust just fine to another home better suited for his situation.

And just as an FYI, dogs can and have mated thru a fence:)

There used to be a man who lived near us in our old house who had a beautiful rottie; we'd meet him out and about and it was obvious that that dog adored him and he the dog, but he was one of those people who swore blind the dog wouldn't be able to survive without him, yadda yadda, you know how it goes, only he could feed him, only he could handle him, he was 'alpha' over the dog and so forth. Right up until he fell off a ladder doing something with a gutter and hurt his back quite badly. Cue his sister taking the dog for a number of months and the dog thriving under her care.
This dog was a even-tempered animal, as a lot of Rotties are, but he was astounded ( and I think a little offended) by how happy the dog was with her. Just goes to show, dogs follow well-adjusted people of different stripes. Even my own dog, who is pretty devoted to me, likes the kennel maid who looks after him when we need to travel. :)
I think Ali sounds like a lovely dog to me, and he might do very well in a one dog household, or a household where bullying is not tolerated at the very least.

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