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Old 02-04-2013, 01:21 AM   #41 (permalink)
Jag
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I don't know where the thyroid panel was done. I do know it was a 'full' thyroid panel, as I asked for the numbers of each one. I don't think it's fair to punish a dog for defending himself, though. He didn't start the fight. He even tried to walk away from it (which he normally does when she tries to start something) but she went after him. Trying to catch her, unfortunately, is like trying to catch a greased pig. This is why I think she needs her harness back on during the day.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:33 AM   #42 (permalink)
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They are safely crated. Because I can't be sure they won't act like animals.
I guess we just have radically different philosophies on dogs. . Crates are safe places to sleep and recoup from illness or injury. Not a long term solution to pack pecking order issues. Not when I work the occasional 8 hour day with a 2 hour commute. I do not expect either my old senior or my puppies to hold it for 10 hours. They have to get along.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:37 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Hey, this is what I do with multiple dogs, who have varying issues, are of different sizes, different ages including 6 dogs ages 7 and up, and rotating in fosters. I am not saying anyone else has to do it this way.

I do it, and have done it this way for years and think my dogs feel safe because I don't allow anyone to take over, no matter how much they may want to. So they get to do a lot more because there are expectations for their behavior and I am their "teacher" who explains to them what I want to see.

If Grim and the Pug are agitating each other to the point of rolling, fighting, etc, stop it before it gets that far. Then you don't have to punish anyone.

If I were going to be gone for 10 hours on a regular basis, I would look at rooms, having someone let them out, etc. None of my dogs are in crates for dogs their sizes, according to the boxes - they are all in x-pens, larger crates than they need, or an indoor kennel. When I leave, I know no one is getting into anything, and I don't have to play poop detective if someone gets sick.

Bottom line, if we don't like the way our packs acts, we need to change the way we respond to them. I do this all as positively as possible, the more so, the better reactions I get.

You all do you!
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:37 AM   #44 (permalink)
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No, she is not a shepherd. No, I will never feel about her the way I feel towards Grim, he is my heart dog. However, I do love her. I care for her and about her. Even if she's an uppity brat. Female pugs are like that.

Wow, this sounds so much like my English Bulldog it's amazing. That is pretty much exactly how she acted, and how I felt about her. She drove me crazy with her stubborn, nasty attitude but I loved her and took care of her until she died. There was this weird selfishness about her that was different than any dog I've had. And I miss her now that she is gone.

She also was the least bright animal I have ever had, and only learned to sit. I was so thrilled the day she learned even that, and never tried to teach her any other commands because I thought it would confuse her.

Ariel died when she was 8 1/2, and I never saw much change in her behavior/attitude. I think with a dog like that you might just have to manage her rather than have any hope of successfully training her.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:44 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Hey, this is what I do with multiple dogs, who have varying issues, are of different sizes, different ages including 6 dogs ages 7 and up, and rotating in fosters. I am not saying anyone else has to do it this way.

I do it, and have done it this way for years and think my dogs feel safe because I don't allow anyone to take over, no matter how much they may want to. So they get to do a lot more because there are expectations for their behavior and I am their "teacher" who explains to them what I want to see.

If Grim and the Pug are agitating each other to the point of rolling, fighting, etc, stop it before it gets that far. Then you don't have to punish anyone.

If I were going to be gone for 10 hours on a regular basis, I would look at rooms, having someone let them out, etc. None of my dogs are in crates for dogs their sizes, according to the boxes - they are all in x-pens, larger crates than they need, or an indoor kennel. When I leave, I know no one is getting into anything, and I don't have to play poop detective if someone gets sick.

Bottom line, if we don't like the way our packs acts, we need to change the way we respond to them. I do this all as positively as possible, the more so, the better reactions I get.

You all do you!
I haven't done fostering yet, (because of those occasional 10 hour days) and I'm sure that will be totally different from my own group.

I live out of town on where there is no one to come in and let dogs out and walk them. (hence the 2 hour commute).

Doing it the way I do, I have to have a clear pack order. I have to make sure I always support Buddy's role as leader.

This is what I was trying to get across in my first few posts. If you have multiple dogs you can not let a puppy come in and suddenly give him rights above your old dog. It will not work and if you are not always going to be there to crate and manage you have guide them in the direction you want, you need to make the rules very very clear.

Some dogs like my Duffy never get the rules and those dogs have to be managed for life. My other dogs, back when we had Duffy, learned that his staring was not a challenge and I was able to leave them all together but I couldn't take him places with dogs he didn't know. Duffy was also good sized. I'm pretty confident had he been little, I would have had a much bigger problem.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:53 AM   #46 (permalink)
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We are doing pretty much the same thing - you just trust yours waaaaay more than I trust mine, and are probably not a neurotic person in general. Unlike me! And I don't necessarily support one as a leader except by age - no one messes with a senior. I have my new Napolean who tried to give my (I believe - not sure on 2 dog's actual ages) oldest dog some lip and I was all up in his business. No hands on, but clear communication that no, not happening. Because over half my group are seniors or entering seniorhood...I am making sure everyone knows where we stand on this.

In fact, if you could say this about dogs, I will - my dogs are trained to act in a way of what we would call kindness towards others. That's what I want. That's the goal, and having that goal makes it easy for me to call foul when I see them veer off the path.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:31 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Selfishness. That's a good way to describe her! "All toys are MINE, all furniture is MINE, everything I may want is MINE!" I used to not be bothered by this, until I got Grim. Keep in mind that when I got Layla, I had no intention of getting another shepherd. He blows her off 99% of the time. If she takes a toy, he lets her. She tries to 'taunt' him with the toy she took... putting it in his face then taking off with it, and he ignores her. He'll simply find something else. I've been trying to stop the direct stealing for months, with no improvement. Been trying to teach her 'down' for months with no improvement. If she gets snarky, I've been putting her in the bedroom to cool off. She is the one that will take on anyone. The older dog or Grim. It's not usually an every day affair. She doesn't seem to get that she's going to get creamed one of these days. Luckily, Grim seems to have more patience with her than Jade. I've tried "ruling with an iron fist" and it just doesn't get through to her.

When she started taking his antler, I bought her an antler just for her. Doesn't matter... she still takes his. If anyone takes HER stuff, though, look out!! I don't see putting all his toys up as being the answer. Then he'd be into all MY stuff because he's got nothing to play with or chew on. I'll keep looking for a better way to manage this. Hopefully I'll find it. I don't want to be taking anyone to the vet's office broken and bleeding because she's dense.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:39 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Layla is 2. She's just as you described. Grim is the one you described as an alpha. He steals nothing. He doesn't try anything with any dog. He's respectful of the old gal. I don't know if Jade 'learned' how to steal from Layla or what. She used to be the calm steady one. Things have changed. Took her to the vet about it. Vet thinks she's mentally slipping a little. We're watching her closely.

Layla has only ever learned 'sit'. She never did get 'down', but not for lack of trying.
In your 1st post you said Jade took something from Grim and you took it and gave it back to Grim.
You enforced his status at that point as being higher than Jade's. That's why he felt within his "right" to steal it back when she stole it the 2nd time.
Now, if you didn't want Jade to have it, that's fine, but don't give it back to Grim, because he's a puppy and it's "natural" for the leader/alpha dogs or higher in status, to steal puppy's things.
That's how puppies learn they are lower in status than the alphas.

So if you want him to have something that's exclusively his, give it to him in a crate, or separated, but don't take things from the leader dog and give them to a puppy (if alpha/leader has stolen).

You have to take an active role in maintaining the leader's status, if a senior, because letting PUPPY take over the house is not good.

Now, the Pug is also leader over Grim, because she's been there longer, she's older and she's a female.
I'd do this, regardless, because it's good, mentally for puppies to be underlings.
I don't care if he gets to be 100lbs, he needs to see himself as the last guy on the totem pole, because he'll be easier for you to handle and you'll have far fewer issues.

You do that by separating him at times, crating when the others aren't, and not worrying if they have gravy on their food and he has none.
Dog's don't view their lives as "fair", so we shouldn't worry about it either.

My "alpha" boy goes places with me, this enforces his status, along with his attitude that he owns the world. I have a female "true" alpha as well, and you'd better bet I don't take things from her if she's got them, and give them to other dogs. She's also the oldest - and if she wants a particular bed, I don't make her move so someone else can lay there.

Now - fostering can be different, and yesterday one of the fosters thought she'd guard a bed she had from a foster who has been here since last summer (Candy's only been here since last month). I promptly made her move and in fact crated her for a few hrs.! She doesn't get to waltz in here and guard things when someone else is older and has more rank.

I guess my point is, take a more active role, you said you're not, and that's how it would be "in the wild", but then you actually did be active in taking something Jade had stolen and returning it to Grim. It's fine to not allow stealing but (and this is how I'd handle it here) don't give the item back to the owner because to a dog, you just demoted her and PROmoted the puppy.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:58 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Too mad to respond right now.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:59 PM   #50 (permalink)
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We are doing pretty much the same thing - you just trust yours waaaaay more than I trust mine, and are probably not a neurotic person in general. Unlike me! And I don't necessarily support one as a leader except by age - no one messes with a senior. I have my new Napolean who tried to give my (I believe - not sure on 2 dog's actual ages) oldest dog some lip and I was all up in his business. No hands on, but clear communication that no, not happening. Because over half my group are seniors or entering seniorhood...I am making sure everyone knows where we stand on this.

In fact, if you could say this about dogs, I will - my dogs are trained to act in a way of what we would call kindness towards others. That's what I want. That's the goal, and having that goal makes it easy for me to call foul when I see them veer off the path.
I don't know if you could say I'm not a neurotic person... And at one time I had two bitches who were fighting and I was an absolute mess. I've made my share of mistakes over the years and hopefully learned from them and I learn new things on here all the time.

My current pack yeah they are awesome. No worries about trusting Buddy or Tasha. The two labs, I trust them not to fight but trouble oh yeah they will find it.

Here is the thing. I brought the labs into Buddy's house, they are playing with his toys sharing his space and his people. If he suddenly decides he wants to play with one of his toys and he only has one that he really likes, well it is his. I'm not going to correct him for taking it. If he was nasty about it (which Buddy never is) I would pick it up and it would be mine. Not given to the puppy. The only thing I wouldn't let Buddy take would be Tasha's ball. That is hers, but Buddy is not interested he prefers soft fuzzy's so it is all good.

Thankfully the labs are easygoing sweethearts, both of them. They are happy to run and jump on each other they eat, sleep and play and they love everyone. I have never had easier puppies. Its kind of wierd. Why didn't someone tell me about these wonderful dogs years ago!
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