Dog "Kicked out" of obedience class.

Orroo · 01-29-2013, 06:20 AM

So, our dog trainer just called me and asked me not to bring my dog to class this week (I'll go into why, shortly). Outside of class, he is as good as gold, but he struggles with the obedience class.

First, the dog:
He's an 8 month old GSD. I've had him since 8 weeks and he has attended puppy classes since about 12 weeks. Even though he has always mixed with other dogs, he's never really been that comfortable around them. Up until he was about six months old, he would always bark at other dogs out on walks. However, for the last two months or so, he has been much more relaxed and generally just ignores other dogs on the street (off of his lead, that is). These days, when he sees another dog, he will generally just trot past. Occasionally, there will be a bit of bouncing around and the odd bark, but it looks more playful than nervous. That said, even when he properly mingles with other dogs on walks, he doesn't really interact with them or play with them.

When he's on his lead, he is still quite barky around other dogs. Generally, it's quite rare for us to meet other dogs while on his lead because we're right by a field. We walk about 40m and then he's off and playing fetch.

Now, the problem:
We moved to our current obedience class a couple of months ago. Our previous class was a bit old school, and the trainers liked to shout at the dogs sometimes and snap their leads. When I was told "if he barks, snap his lead and shout at him", I left. I've done quite a bit of research and reading up on positive methods, so that class was no longer for me.

The new class is based in quite a small hall. There are around six dogs in the class. While in the hall, and on his lead, the dog likes to have a good bark at the other dogs when he gets bored. We tend to all do the exercised in turns, so while the other dogs are doing their things, he likes to watch and have a good bark. I counter this as much as possible by trying to get him to sit facing me, using the "watch me" command etc. Basically, just distracting him. This helps, but is hard to keep up for a whole hour and he still gets a good bark off now and then. Other than being embarrassing, it has never been a serious issue.

A couple of weeks ago, a nervous border collie joined the class. Her and my guy make an explosive combo: He barks, she turns nervous-aggressive and goes mental. They basically wind each other up. No fault of either of theirs really. He doesn't have an issue with her in particular, he just randomly barks because he's bored and that sets her off, which in turn sets him off.

The trainer called today and said that she felt that the small hall was exacerbating his behaviour, and that she was worried that he would start showing this behaviour in other settings. She says she is hoping to start an outdoor class when it warms up a bit, and says that she thinks a larger arena will help because we can separate him from the other dogs to a distance where he's comfortable, and then slowly de-sensitise him and move him closer to the other dogs. Apparently she has a few other dogs with similar issues, so is hoping to have a sort of "nervous dog class".
He has always struggled in that particular hall. Not just with the other dogs, but he loves sniffing around the floor too. So he'll be heeling, and then just "sniff off" somewhere. He would never do that at home, in the garden, or out on a walk. Just in that hall, which is annoying.
So, to get to the point... I was just putting this out there to get some advice really. I was carrying on the class because he was struggling if that makes sense? I was hoping that taking him to class would help him with that particular issue. I feel a bit like he's being abandoned by the trainer now, although what she has said about moving to a larger arena makes perfect sense.

Any more helpful tips on helping my guy out would be appreciated. I think it's fairly common for a GSD to be a bit of a flake around other dogs, but I really thought we had done all the right things with him.

Is this just general "leash reactivity", or is this something different?

debbiebrown · 01-29-2013, 06:31 AM

the small area does make sense. although i am curious to know how the owner of the border collie is handling him? from experience one of the things about border collie is that they have a tendancy to stare down other dogs. it was happening to me in agility class a while back. the stare can be taken as a challenge and i can see why in especially a small area this would be hard to work with. especially if the border collie owner is un aware of it, or can't handle him. my best advice is that if you are uncomfortable with the new place it won't help your dog any because he will sense it. so, i would either try to find a new class, and go observe first, or wait to be outside. a better class would be in a bigger inside area with less dogs and more trainer interaction.

Orroo · 01-29-2013, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debbiebrown

the small area does make sense. although i am curious to know how the owner of the border collie is handling him? from experience one of the things about border collie is that they have a tendancy to stare down other dogs. it was happening to me in agility class a while back. the stare can be taken as a challenge and i can see why in especially a small area this would be hard to work with. especially if the border collie owner is un aware of it, or can't handle him. my best advice is that if you are uncomfortable with the new place it won't help your dog any because he will sense it. so, i would either try to find a new class, and go observe first, or wait to be outside. a better class would be in a bigger inside area with less dogs and more trainer interaction.

The collie (actually a "she") is definitely staring him down quite a bit. Been trying to counter this by sitting him with his back to her, but if he turns around and she's staring, he barks. The owner of the collie... Well, she generally just gives me a look of disgust every time my guy barks at her dog, like her dog couldn't possibly be involved in any way. Not that I think she seems like a stuck up cow or anything (truth: I do) haha.

Seriously though, it was never an issue before the collie started before. Sure, he was noisy and a bit annoying, but the collie's owner looks genuinely terrified every time she barks. Ironically, it's her dog that is lunging and barking, my guy is just having a moan!

You're probably right about him sensing my dread for the class. It definitely seems to spiral out of control - as I get more and more frustrated, it seems like he does too. I do try and just ignore it and not get frustrated, but sometimes I do just want to curl up in the corner and die

Perhaps I should just give up on obedience class. I have done quite a bit of reading on dog training and find it really interesting. All of the commands he know, I have taught him myself. Really, we just go to class to socialise him and to enforce doing his commands around distractions. Given that we generally end up stuck in the corner away from the other dogs, the class is probably not really benefitting us anyway!

robk · 01-29-2013, 07:09 AM

Dogs do have distance thresholds. There are certain distances from where they can become reactive to other dogs. It makes sense to me to take reactive dogs to large fields and gradually move them closer to each other as you build engagement. I did this my self with my own dog when he was younger. When he was 4-5 months old he went through a spell where he was reactive to other dogs while he was on leash. At my wife's work there is a fenced in yard next to the parking lot with a couple of barking dogs. So I started at the other end of the Lot (basically as far a way as I needed to go to be able to hold my dogs attention). What I did was working on keeping my dog focused on me, working on obedience, rewarding him with treats for keeping his attention on me. Over several training session we worked our way across the parking lot towards the fenced dogs. Eventually we were able to stand right next to the fence and do complete obedience routines with the other dogs standing not two feet away..

As for the border collie, I just hope that she told the owner of that dog the same thing as you.

llombardo · 01-29-2013, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robk

As for the border collie, I just hope that she told the owner of that dog the same thing as you.

debbiebrown · 01-29-2013, 07:14 AM

i am surprised the trainer did not address the border collie starring. this tells me she is not very observant. not fair to blame it on you when there are other things going on.
i would Not give up on training what so ever. sometimes, other types of classes might help. do they have any article indication classes or Tracking? is there a local schH club? sometimes your better off going to where they deal with mostly GSD's. training your dog for a sport or job will give both of you more confidence and you will learn how to teach and handle him, he will learn to pay attention to you. Obdedience classes are only good if the trainer is good, and you are comfortable with things. otherwise things back fire and you end up at square one again.

Orroo · 01-29-2013, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robk

Eventually we were able to stand right next to the fence and do complete obedience routines with the other dogs standing not two feet away..

This is my dream come true. I've used counterconditioning for lots of behaviours in the past (cyclists and runners were not safe round my way for quite a while), so I guess I need to put it to work for the barking too. Good advice - thanks!

As for the collie - I'm not creating some kind of blame game here. For all I know, the trainer had the same conversation with her owner too. That said, I did suspect that she'd had a bit of a moan to the trainer before I got the call earlier. She always avoids us (me and my girlfriend, not just me and the dog) before, during and after class, when the rest of the class are really friendly.

I don't intend on giving up training - I've had (in my opinion) really good success training our guy. I've never owned a dog before, so have been powering through training books starting six months before we even got him. He's very obedient and knows lots of commands (evidence below), it's more just stressing out around other dogs and general lack of focus sometimes. I really need to build up his attention around distractions.

Here's a novelty trick I taught my dog fairly recently. It's not perfect, but I'm happy with it!

Hurley stick em up complete - YouTube

debbiebrown · 01-29-2013, 07:35 AM

you can do your own training. go to big parkinglots practice focus. o to schools, practice focus, Ob etc. take him anywhere there is alot going on. start at a distance and when you feel he is progressing move in a bit closer. focus work takes time. does he have a favorite toy? you can use that as a reward. the tug toy for us is a huge tool. food is always good if you can find something yummie, for us its chicken. heel with him and even put the chicken in your mouth show him its there, he will soon be looking for it. the tug toy builds a huge bond in that its close interaction with just you and him. most dogs love to tug, you might need to work on the tug game if you do not do it. get him excited for it, hide it behind your back give him a peek at it, and hide it again. there are rules with the tugs game. and its only used when your training for a higher value toy. food is good, but that might not be enough to get his attention. all depends on the dog.

FlyAway · 01-29-2013, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debbiebrown

i am surprised the trainer did not address the border collie starring. this tells me she is not very observant. not fair to blame it on you when there are other things going on.

Ditto

**JeanKBBMMMAAN** · 01-29-2013, 08:01 AM

Border collies stare. It's what they do and she's going to be an extra project for that owner. It is going to take a lot of work for both dogs and they are not good classmates. Sounds like the OP has a good outlook and some plans for working with his dog in the interim.

www.vetstreet.com

01-29-2013, 06:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
Orroo New Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16	Dog "Kicked out" of obedience class. So, our dog trainer just called me and asked me not to bring my dog to class this week (I'll go into why, shortly). Outside of class, he is as good as gold, but he struggles with the obedience class. First, the dog: He's an 8 month old GSD. I've had him since 8 weeks and he has attended puppy classes since about 12 weeks. Even though he has always mixed with other dogs, he's never really been that comfortable around them. Up until he was about six months old, he would always bark at other dogs out on walks. However, for the last two months or so, he has been much more relaxed and generally just ignores other dogs on the street (off of his lead, that is). These days, when he sees another dog, he will generally just trot past. Occasionally, there will be a bit of bouncing around and the odd bark, but it looks more playful than nervous. That said, even when he properly mingles with other dogs on walks, he doesn't really interact with them or play with them. When he's on his lead, he is still quite barky around other dogs. Generally, it's quite rare for us to meet other dogs while on his lead because we're right by a field. We walk about 40m and then he's off and playing fetch. Now, the problem: We moved to our current obedience class a couple of months ago. Our previous class was a bit old school, and the trainers liked to shout at the dogs sometimes and snap their leads. When I was told "if he barks, snap his lead and shout at him", I left. I've done quite a bit of research and reading up on positive methods, so that class was no longer for me. The new class is based in quite a small hall. There are around six dogs in the class. While in the hall, and on his lead, the dog likes to have a good bark at the other dogs when he gets bored. We tend to all do the exercised in turns, so while the other dogs are doing their things, he likes to watch and have a good bark. I counter this as much as possible by trying to get him to sit facing me, using the "watch me" command etc. Basically, just distracting him. This helps, but is hard to keep up for a whole hour and he still gets a good bark off now and then. Other than being embarrassing, it has never been a serious issue. A couple of weeks ago, a nervous border collie joined the class. Her and my guy make an explosive combo: He barks, she turns nervous-aggressive and goes mental. They basically wind each other up. No fault of either of theirs really. He doesn't have an issue with her in particular, he just randomly barks because he's bored and that sets her off, which in turn sets him off. The trainer called today and said that she felt that the small hall was exacerbating his behaviour, and that she was worried that he would start showing this behaviour in other settings. She says she is hoping to start an outdoor class when it warms up a bit, and says that she thinks a larger arena will help because we can separate him from the other dogs to a distance where he's comfortable, and then slowly de-sensitise him and move him closer to the other dogs. Apparently she has a few other dogs with similar issues, so is hoping to have a sort of "nervous dog class". He has always struggled in that particular hall. Not just with the other dogs, but he loves sniffing around the floor too. So he'll be heeling, and then just "sniff off" somewhere. He would never do that at home, in the garden, or out on a walk. Just in that hall, which is annoying. So, to get to the point... I was just putting this out there to get some advice really. I was carrying on the class because he was struggling if that makes sense? I was hoping that taking him to class would help him with that particular issue. I feel a bit like he's being abandoned by the trainer now, although what she has said about moving to a larger arena makes perfect sense. Any more helpful tips on helping my guy out would be appreciated. I think it's fairly common for a GSD to be a bit of a flake around other dogs, but I really thought we had done all the right things with him. Is this just general "leash reactivity", or is this something different?

01-29-2013, 06:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
debbiebrown Crowned Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: maine Posts: 7,735	the small area does make sense. although i am curious to know how the owner of the border collie is handling him? from experience one of the things about border collie is that they have a tendancy to stare down other dogs. it was happening to me in agility class a while back. the stare can be taken as a challenge and i can see why in especially a small area this would be hard to work with. especially if the border collie owner is un aware of it, or can't handle him. my best advice is that if you are uncomfortable with the new place it won't help your dog any because he will sense it. so, i would either try to find a new class, and go observe first, or wait to be outside. a better class would be in a bigger inside area with less dogs and more trainer interaction. __________________ url

01-29-2013, 07:14 AM	#6 (permalink)
debbiebrown Crowned Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: maine Posts: 7,735	i am surprised the trainer did not address the border collie starring. this tells me she is not very observant. not fair to blame it on you when there are other things going on. i would Not give up on training what so ever. sometimes, other types of classes might help. do they have any article indication classes or Tracking? is there a local schH club? sometimes your better off going to where they deal with mostly GSD's. training your dog for a sport or job will give both of you more confidence and you will learn how to teach and handle him, he will learn to pay attention to you. Obdedience classes are only good if the trainer is good, and you are comfortable with things. otherwise things back fire and you end up at square one again. __________________ url

01-29-2013, 07:35 AM	#8 (permalink)
debbiebrown Crowned Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: maine Posts: 7,735	you can do your own training. go to big parkinglots practice focus. o to schools, practice focus, Ob etc. take him anywhere there is alot going on. start at a distance and when you feel he is progressing move in a bit closer. focus work takes time. does he have a favorite toy? you can use that as a reward. the tug toy for us is a huge tool. food is always good if you can find something yummie, for us its chicken. heel with him and even put the chicken in your mouth show him its there, he will soon be looking for it. the tug toy builds a huge bond in that its close interaction with just you and him. most dogs love to tug, you might need to work on the tug game if you do not do it. get him excited for it, hide it behind your back give him a peek at it, and hide it again. there are rules with the tugs game. and its only used when your training for a higher value toy. food is good, but that might not be enough to get his attention. all depends on the dog. __________________ url

01-29-2013, 08:01 AM	#10 (permalink)
JeanKBBMMMAAN The Rescues Rule Administrator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 22,776	Border collies stare. It's what they do and she's going to be an extra project for that owner. It is going to take a lot of work for both dogs and they are not good classmates. Sounds like the OP has a good outlook and some plans for working with his dog in the interim. www.vetstreet.com __________________ Help IMOM help Pets www.imom.org Help a rescue: wish some big dogs a Happy Howliday! www.bigdogsbighearts.blogspot.com Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight. Albert Schweitzer

01-29-2013, 07:09 AM	#4 (permalink)
robk Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 1,525	Dogs do have distance thresholds. There are certain distances from where they can become reactive to other dogs. It makes sense to me to take reactive dogs to large fields and gradually move them closer to each other as you build engagement. I did this my self with my own dog when he was younger. When he was 4-5 months old he went through a spell where he was reactive to other dogs while he was on leash. At my wife's work there is a fenced in yard next to the parking lot with a couple of barking dogs. So I started at the other end of the Lot (basically as far a way as I needed to go to be able to hold my dogs attention). What I did was working on keeping my dog focused on me, working on obedience, rewarding him with treats for keeping his attention on me. Over several training session we worked our way across the parking lot towards the fenced dogs. Eventually we were able to stand right next to the fence and do complete obedience routines with the other dogs standing not two feet away.. As for the border collie, I just hope that she told the owner of that dog the same thing as you.

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