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Old 01-15-2013, 12:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The dog is lacking off leash basic obedience, and the ONLY way to do that is through positive reinforcement, and repetition.
"[P]ositive reinforcement and repetition" are NOT the "ONLY way" to teach basic OB.

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An ecollar will work, but only the hands of someone that knows how to properly use it.
The articles on my site are written in a how−to fashion so that someone who has never before used the tool, (or any tool for that matter) can do so, and get excellent results in a very short time.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Learning new ideas and techniques is one thing when speaking of adding an E-collar to a tool box. This particular owner is lacking in the basics of training. Without some foundation (both for the dog and the handler), the chances of an E-collar being used incorrectly are great.
If the OP was to pick up an Ecollar and just start using it without any training, I'd agree. But since no one is advocating this, making such a statement is misleading at best. If the OP were to read the articles on my site and put them to use, "the chances of an Ecollar being used incorrectly are" miniscule.


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E-collars aren't cheap, either. For the cost of one, you could get through at least two behavior classes.
I'd bet that few inexperienced owners, and the OP seems to fall into that group, are going to get satisfactory results with "two behavior classes." There are many here who have been to dozens of such classes and STILL aren't satisfied with their results. With the Ecollar, the only out−of−pocket cost, is the initial investment, and in 3-5 years, the replacement of batteries.

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I'd venture to go one step further and say that if someone gets a pet, they need to be able to provide for it.
I'd agree. The sad fact is that many will try to cut corners and not spend the money.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LouCastle View Post
"[P]ositive reinforcement and repetition" are NOT the "ONLY way" to teach basic OB.



The articles on my site are written in a how−to fashion so that someone who has never before used the tool, (or any tool for that matter) can do so, and get excellent results in a very short time.
Lou,
I believe you may have missed the reference to [b] basic obedience[b]
Still not sure a person who can't get past basic obedience commands, should attempt to use an ecollar.
Whether it's in plain English or not.
Ecollar corrections would be useless in the hands of someone that doesn't understand the need to communicate with their dog with basic obedience commands


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Old 01-15-2013, 03:40 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I am not against e-collars, but I have to go with Anthony and Jag on that. I don't think that someone who doesn't even understand not to punish the dog when she does finally catch it is really going to be ready to use an e-collar soon. That shows a pretty fundamental lack of understanding about how dogs think and learn. Instead, I would recommend using a long lead and reward-based training to teach recall in a controlled manner as was described by posters on the first page of this thread. It's harder to make serious mistakes doing it that way.

While she is working on that, she can learn about the proper use of an e-collar and about how dogs learn, and then if she is still struggling with recall she can decide to add the e-collar to her toolbox.

I don't mean any offense by that, OP. We all start somewhere. It certainly won't hurt to check out the site linked and consider an e-collar, but if you do go that route, you need to commit to really understanding how and when to use it so that your dog understands what you want. I've seen multiple dogs messed up by well-meaning owners using e-collars improperly so that's why I am so cautious about recommending them.

And while using an e-collar isn't rocket science, I've seen them misused more than I've seen them used properly when the owner is inexperienced and not under the direct guidance of a skilled trainer. I think they are one of the easiest training tools to misuse. Based on my experience, I will not recommend them to inexperienced owners unless they are working with a good trainer.

I will also add that, when it comes to relative costs, the price of a decent but relatively inexpensive e-collar will still get you a 6-week training course with a decent trainer in most areas I've lived. Recall isn't a hard thing to train and it's not like you need a specialist to do so. I suspect that 1-on-1 help will be more beneficial than an e-collar for this particular owner.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:53 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Lou,
I believe you may have missed the reference to [b] basic obedience[b]
Nope, I didn't miss the reference.

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Still not sure a person who can't get past basic obedience commands, should attempt to use an ecollar.
Whether it's in plain English or not.
I said nothing of "plain English." I said that my articles are written in a "how−to fashion so that someone who has never before used the tool, (or any tool for that matter) can do so, and get excellent results in a very short time." To use my article one need not have any experience or knowledge of dog training.

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Ecollar corrections would be useless in the hands of someone that doesn't understand the need to communicate with their dog with basic obedience commands.
I don't use the Ecollar as you state, with "corrections" for basic OB. I suggest that you take a look at the articles yourself, so you understand the process, instead of guessing what I do.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:54 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I am not against e-collars, but I have to go with Anthony and Jag on that. I don't think that someone who doesn't even understand not to punish the dog when she does finally catch it is really going to be ready to use an e-collar soon.
All that's necessary is that the OP read and follow the instructions.

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That shows a pretty fundamental lack of understanding about how dogs think and learn.
It's not necessary to "understand ... how dogs think and learn" to use my methods. It's helpful if one wants to understand what's going on, but it's certainly not necessary.

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Instead, I would recommend using a long lead and reward-based training to teach recall in a controlled manner as was described by posters on the first page of this thread. It's harder to make serious mistakes doing it that way.
If one can read and follow simple instructions, one can use my methods. And I'll disagree. It's JUST AS EASY to "make serious mistakes" with a "long lead and reward based training ..."

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While she is working on that, she can learn about the proper use of an e-collar and about how dogs learn, and then if she is still struggling with recall she can decide to add the e-collar to her toolbox.
There's no need to wait.

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I don't mean any offense by that, OP. We all start somewhere. It certainly won't hurt to check out the site linked and consider an e-collar, but if you do go that route, you need to commit to really understanding how and when to use it so that your dog understands what you want. I've seen multiple dogs messed up by well-meaning owners using e-collars improperly so that's why I am so cautious about recommending them.
Here's the often−seen thinly−veiled warning given about Ecollars, that the poster has "seen multiple dogs messed up ..." I'd bet a house payment that NONE of those trainers were using my methods. I'd bet that house payment that they were either using the Ecollar without direction or using it only for corrections. I often wonder why people make comments like this one, they're worthless as far as what I'm talking about. NEVER have my methods "messed up" a dog.

I've seen plenty of dogs "messed up" by people using "a long lead and reward based training," but I never make such a comment until and unless others post the usual anti Ecollar "warning."

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And while using an e-collar isn't rocket science, I've seen them misused more than I've seen them used properly when the owner is inexperienced and not under the direct guidance of a skilled trainer.
Here's another of those veiled warnings that are worthless to this discussion. You have ABSOLUTELY no evidence that the OP, using my methods, would "misuse" the tool.

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I think they are one of the easiest training tools to misuse.
I think that it's far easier to misuse treats.

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Based on my experience, I will not recommend them to inexperienced owners unless they are working with a good trainer.
I'm glad that you included the disclaimer, "based on [your] experience ..." Based on MY experience, and I've put Ecollars on well over 3,000 dogs, I WILL recommend them to inexperienced owners, if they are reading and following my methods. My website has MANY testimonials from such people who used them, per my methods, and had no dog training experience at all.

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I will also add that, when it comes to relative costs, the price of a decent but relatively inexpensive e-collar will still get you a 6-week training course with a decent trainer in most areas I've lived. Recall isn't a hard thing to train and it's not like you need a specialist to do so. I suspect that 1-on-1 help will be more beneficial than an e-collar for this particular owner.
And if the "6 week training course ..." doesn't give the owner the desired results, that money is gone. Few trainers offer a money back guarantee. Usually they offer to allow the owner to attend more classes at no cost, if there's any guarantee at all. The problem here is that "more of the same" probably won't work, if it hasn't already.

If the owner has purchased an Ecollar, tries my methods and doesn't like the results, the Ecollar can be returned FOR A FULL REFUND, less a few bucks for shipping, as long as it's within 30 days of purchase. That being said, I've never had anyone ask for a refund.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Lou, with all due respect.... As a first time GSD owner, I really don't have the right to argue with you, and I won't.

However, I will admit that it took me a GREAT DEAL of communication, with some very knowledgeable people (here at GS.com) to get any type of an understanding of what my goals should be with Kira. And even many months, I found myself lost and confused.
If I had to rely on reading an instruction sheet on the internet, and attempt to use an ecollar, I honestly believe I would have done more harm than good.

My only suggestion to the OP, was to get an idea of what it takes to apply some basic obedience
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:11 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I've read your site Lou and I like your methods, but I think we have a fundamental disagreement in the role of the owner in training. I don't think an owner who doesn't understand their dog can be truly effective or correct. Dogs will throw behaviors that won't fit into the instructions and the owner needs to be able to understand how to handle them, and ignorant owners routinely misinterpret their dogs' behaviors to boot. And while I'm not a professional dog trainer, I routinely train people and their dogs for free and I am a professional horse trainer, and while horses and dogs are obviously very different animals, IME teaching people to train their animals is the same, and is the most important thing. So that's where I'm coming from.

JMO, of course, and at this point I think all we can do is agree to disagree. I'll bow out of this thread as I don't think there's a whole lot more to say and we'll just be arguing around in circles.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:36 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Earlier KayleeGSD recommended the Ecollar and linked to my site.
Yes, it seems that a quick read through of your site, and this person was smitten with you. Bravo, but I am failing to see enough experience to make an informed opinion of this method.


I wholeheartedly disagree with this. NO ONE "needs classes" to learn how to train a dog. Many will benefit from them, but often they're a waste of time. There are no tests to pass, no certification required, for someone to call themselves a dog trainer. And so you may find yourself wasting your time, your money, and a good part of your dog's life, going to classes.
Many will benefit, but often they're a waste of time. This appears to be a contradiction. Your sentence about how easy it is to call oneself a dog trainer is one of my points. It works for you, but is a bad thing for every other trainer? Many folks here are more than happy to give trainer's names that they've used to help someone looking for a trainer. I don't think it's that daunting of a process.

Ecollars are not just for "proof[ing] behaviors" and whether your dog is dominant or submissive has nothing to do with using one.

This is one area where some of us disagree.

The Ecollar IS the first choice of many trainers who know how to use it properly. The articles on my site are free. Take a look and decide for yourself if they make sense to you. Don't rely on the advice against them from people who have never used one. When you decide to get an Ecollar, make sure that you get a quality unit,

I've looked at your site. I know, it's probably not something you understand that a person could read it and still not be swept up in it. Don't worry, if the times comes I need one I already know where I'll get it.

I know of no trainers who "use only one tool" or who use one tool "in every situation." People who oppose the Ecollar usually have little to no experience with them and have little knowledge about their use.
It still seems to those of us reading here that your tool of choice is the only one you publicly advocate. This, to me, sound like a 'one tool box'. I still don't understand the brushing off of in person trainers, especially for those that need fundamentals. I fail to see how anyone could be successful in training their dog without having any understanding of dogs.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:46 AM   #30 (permalink)
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All that's necessary is that the OP read and follow the instructions.

The OP also has to have understanding.

It's not necessary to "understand ... how dogs think and learn" to use my methods. It's helpful if one wants to understand what's going on, but it's certainly not necessary.

I find this a recipe for disaster, IMO.

If one can read and follow simple instructions, one can use my methods. And I'll disagree. It's JUST AS EASY to "make serious mistakes" with a "long lead and reward based training ..."

Please cite references, as well as names. I'm very curious about this one.



Here's the often−seen thinly−veiled warning given about Ecollars, that the poster has "seen multiple dogs messed up ..." I'd bet a house payment that NONE of those trainers were using my methods. I'd bet that house payment that they were either using the Ecollar without direction or using it only for corrections. I often wonder why people make comments like this one, they're worthless as far as what I'm talking about. NEVER have my methods "messed up" a dog.

That you know of.

I've seen plenty of dogs "messed up" by people using "a long lead and reward based training," but I never make such a comment until and unless others post the usual anti Ecollar "warning."



Here's another of those veiled warnings that are worthless to this discussion. You have ABSOLUTELY no evidence that the OP, using my methods, would "misuse" the tool.

The evidence for that possibility has already been pointed out. Clearly, and with reasons.


I think that it's far easier to misuse treats.

This is so laughable as to be unable to be taken seriously.

I'm glad that you included the disclaimer, "based on [your] experience ..." Based on MY experience, and I've put Ecollars on well over 3,000 dogs, I WILL recommend them to inexperienced owners, if they are reading and following my methods. My website has MANY testimonials from such people who used them, per my methods, and had no dog training experience at all.

YOU haven't placed these collars, owners have. Unless you own that many dogs?

And if the "6 week training course ..." doesn't give the owner the desired results, that money is gone. Few trainers offer a money back guarantee. Usually they offer to allow the owner to attend more classes at no cost, if there's any guarantee at all. The problem here is that "more of the same" probably won't work, if it hasn't already.
The main issue with a failure to see results is what it has always been... handler failure. We are speaking of basic obedience here.

If the owner has purchased an Ecollar, tries my methods and doesn't like the results, the Ecollar can be returned FOR A FULL REFUND, less a few bucks for shipping, as long as it's within 30 days of purchase. That being said, I've never had anyone ask for a refund.
How would you offer a refund on E-collars? Are you selling them yourself? If so, it's a blatant violation of board rules. No other member is allowed to sell their products (whether they made them, are a dealer, or otherwise without doing it under the headings where it's allowed. Anyone who is selling training equipment has a reason to push for others to use it.
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