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Old 01-18-2013, 11:38 PM   #41 (permalink)
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i have a question selzer if one bitch is clearly stronger and is dominating the fight right away and the other bitch starts begging for mercy do you find seperating the fight much easier then? then it just turns into pulling one dog off the other? A lot of fights are not an even match one wil just lay there and scream and want a human to rescue it. I think the OP first bitch is scared of his new dog. Usually it is never a even or fair fight one bitch is the clear stronger one. THe real nasty fights is when there is no stronger bitch that they can figure out and both bitches are even matched and ready to fight till death.

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Old 01-19-2013, 12:17 AM   #42 (permalink)
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i have a question selzer if one bitch is clearly stronger and is dominating the fight right away and the other bitch starts begging for mercy do you find seperating the fight much easier then? then it just turns into pulling one dog off the other? A lot of fights are not an even match one wil just lay there and scream and want a human to rescue it. I think the OP first bitch is scared of his new dog. Usually it is never a even or fair fight one bitch is the clear stronger one. THe real nasty fights is when there is no stronger bitch that they can figure out and both bitches are even matched and ready to fight till death.
I have a human brain. If I was 5'2" and 120# and some Roller Derby Queen who was 6'2" and 240#, no I am not going to fight. But dogs are totally different. Sometimes how big they are means nothing. I think there is something to be said for pack order.

There are the dominant or alpha bitches who basically aren't looking to fight, who just carry themselves such that they are the queen and that is the end of it.

Then there are the beta bitches. These are the dogs that fight. They are always trying to be the top bitch, but they are not necessarily born that way. They will submit to a true alpha bitch, but if a true alpha is several years younger or just reaching maturity, they will try to hang onto their position in the pack, particularly if they currently are the alpha because the pack is small -- nasty fight.

There are bitches that are just at ease with the status quo. These bitches are not looking to fight. They are not overly submissive or overly dominant. They are probably fine in a multi-dog pack.

There are omega bitches. These are the ones that are totally submissive. I almost think that they create some of the issues. It is like they invite the bullying: "are you going to eat me?"

I think that fights happen when you have dogs that are close in power level. Two beta bitches, two alpha bitches. I think you can have fights when you have a clear distinction between dogs but you try to treat them totally equally.

Some bitches have the green gene. Some call it resource guarding, and the resource is the owner. The bitches will get along fine until the person pays attention to the Other Bitch. Then things are not good, not good at all. You can actually hear the pain in the aggressor-bitches fury as she attacks the object of the person's affection.

I love bitches. They are fun, they are easy to train, they keep me on my toes, they can be sneaky, they have LOOOOOOOONG memories. They can wait for the right time to do a thing, and then they can act fast.

If one of the bitches clearly does not want to fight, then yes, you can grab a tail and haul the other away without much trouble at all. Usually I find this mostly in adolescent bitches. In mature bitches not so much, but I have a limited pack most of whom are related in some way, so I might just not have had a truly submissive bitch that doesn't want to fight.

I think the dominant/totally submissive fights unless they are exacerbated by humans trying to force equality, are more like bullying. It can make the lesser dog even lesser but is not likely to cause a death between the dogs unless the more dominant bitch has wires crossed in her head.

The dangerous fights are between bitches who are wannabe alphas.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:47 AM   #43 (permalink)
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thanks selzer

who are the bitches that will take on male dogs in seconds? I have seen a bitch walk right up to dogs (males) stare them down and just start hammering into them once in training even by mistake? Are these usually the beta bitches?

Another thing i noticed is this okay 2 bitches meet one bitch is dead serious the other is but not serious enough. The dead serious bitch actually starts biting for real in the the fight while the other bitch or dog doesnt this is when the screaming happens. The other animal Wasn't expecting a real fight with real jaw pressure so might have been stunned or something?

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Old 01-19-2013, 03:18 PM   #44 (permalink)
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That's a great explanation, Selzer! I think what I've got going on is an alpha bitch (the old lady) a wanna be (pug) and an alpha male. Wonderful dynamics going on here, LOL! If I add in another female, it won't be until after the old lady is gone. Don't need more competition for fights! The pug is the most dangerous of all, though, because she really does want to fight when she fights. The old lady really doesn't want to, but when the pug starts it.... She's also a thief of toys, and just wants to instigate whenever possible. Luckily, even though she's rather stupid, she will bow down to Grim when he gets really fed up with her. That's her only redeeming quality.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:10 PM   #45 (permalink)
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jag

what exactly is the old lady? is that your wife?
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:40 PM   #46 (permalink)
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thanks selzer

who are the bitches that will take on male dogs in seconds?
Those are the bitches who are in heat, but not in "standing heat." LOL!
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:22 PM   #47 (permalink)
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jag

what exactly is the old lady? is that your wife?
That's just so not funny. If I had a death wish and was totally insane, then I *might* refer to my wife as "the old lady".
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:37 PM   #48 (permalink)
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cod, google has amazing powers.
If you're truly curious about this and not just being obtuse, then look it up.
It IS well documented.

BTW, I do believe people who haven't experienced true inter-bitch aggression find it hard to believe, but that doesn't mean it isn't true, it simply means you haven't lived though it yet, in your own home.
I have, and I do not want to own another female again.
Not all females are that way (out for blood - of other females!) but when you have one, you will know it.
Hi MsVette...I know you have a lot of experience. My Stella is now 2. I have been working through her DA issues and some days are good and some are worse. Today she was fine while eating out with a friend and her yorkie. She is also great with chihauhaus and cats. However, another large breed dog her hackles go up and she will try to assert herself over them. Is that fear based or dominance? She will sniff them nose to nose and then try to paw at them if not bark at them.

Also....she is being very protective lately. Her 2nd birthday was yesterday. We took her out to a dog friendly restaurant as we often do. She was great to the staff and other folks walking past the table until my husband got up to use the faciities. She put herself on the outside of the table...high alert and would bark at people walking by.

We left the restaurant a short time later and there were folks on the sidewalk. My husband left to get the car and again she started in this posture of barking and high alert.

I am thinking she has some fear issues but not sure where they came from.

I put her in a platz/sitz/fuss over and over to redirect her brain, but each time if folks came to close she would set off again.

today she was fine in the restaurant because i did not bring my husband so she did not morph into a guarding stance...
what is going on with her...guarding or fear reaction????? Also in the parking lot she caught an air scent of something by a police car and she then went to high alert while we were leaving the restaruant.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:08 PM   #49 (permalink)
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She is also great with chihauhaus and cats. However, another large breed dog her hackles go up and she will try to assert herself over them. Is that fear based or dominance? She will sniff them nose to nose and then try to paw at them if not bark at them.
It's very hard to glean out sometimes what our dogs are doing or why. I'm dealing with a very dog-aggressive Dachshund right now who wants to beat up any dogs who are not immediate pack members and even if they are, it's iffy - the mood strikes her and she's after them too. Size and sex don't matter.

One would be tempted to say "dominance" but even fear of losing her "position" could be the cause.
What's important is to learn triggers to avoid fights, it's tough when they are fighting at your ankles (and still injure each other) but when they are waist high they can do a lot more damage to bystanders.

In rescue we see a ton of this type behavior and what works best is avoidance. If other dogs make her nervous/scared and she reacts aggressively, then try to avoid other dogs when out in public. It is no shame to say "my dog isn't friendly to other dogs" and hope others actually take heed!

Dogs like Stella sometimes have had bad experiences with other dogs along the way and wish to get the first lick in, too. They don't feel as threatened perhaps, by smaller dogs but see bigger dogs as able to harm them, so they wish to make the 1st move to stay "in control" of the situation.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:11 AM   #50 (permalink)
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It's very hard to glean out sometimes what our dogs are doing or why. I'm dealing with a very dog-aggressive Dachshund right now who wants to beat up any dogs who are not immediate pack members and even if they are, it's iffy - the mood strikes her and she's after them too. Size and sex don't matter.

One would be tempted to say "dominance" but even fear of losing her "position" could be the cause.
What's important is to learn triggers to avoid fights, it's tough when they are fighting at your ankles (and still injure each other) but when they are waist high they can do a lot more damage to bystanders.

In rescue we see a ton of this type behavior and what works best is avoidance. If other dogs make her nervous/scared and she reacts aggressively, then try to avoid other dogs when out in public. It is no shame to say "my dog isn't friendly to other dogs" and hope others actually take heed!

Dogs like Stella sometimes have had bad experiences with other dogs along the way and wish to get the first lick in, too. They don't feel as threatened perhaps, by smaller dogs but see bigger dogs as able to harm them, so they wish to make the 1st move to stay "in control" of the situation.
It depends on the day with Stella. She will let large breed males come up to her on occasion but she definitely does not like other large breed females.

She was very well socialized as a puppy and really only had 1 experience where a pittie kept wrestling her down and pinning her by the throat. She was a puppy and so was the pittie. They were both about 4-5 months old. She was still ok with other dogs for awhile but she started change her attitude at about the 8 month mark. She had to be the queen around other dogs and then she just started acting alpha around them. After I saw her change I stopped bringing her to the dog park because I could see she was not going to be a dog friendly dog that would get along with all the others.
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