bonding versus training?

[x11]

broad topic but i wonder if the concept of bonding with the handler is understated or underetsimated in general training discussions.

not bragging but most people that see me interact with my dogs are typically impressed with what they see and it is not becuase my dogs have awesome downs while running away at 1000miles/hour or anything fancy in fact they can do nothing at all fancy.

i just see so many dogs that have to be trained so much cos frankly the handlers seem to be so incompetent around dogs, forgive me if that sounds harsh but this type seem obvious even to my eyes, always in conflict, always yelling, every gadget and medievel looking device all up on their dogs neck....the best they ever get is a robot.

so what does it mean to have a dog bond with the handler and is it obvious when one does not exist even in a well trained dog?

[Magwart]

I think it depends whom you are discussing training with. A lot of smart, dog-loving people view training as a great way to bond -- not because the dog is being forced to do anything, but because when it's done well, you are communicating together and its joyous. The dog's loving it, the handler's having a great time, there's lots of praise and affection, and the energy-connection between the two is fabulous. Dogs want to train in those situation.

As for "medieval looking device," if by that you mean a prong collar, perhaps you don't understand them? The trainer who taught me to use one is the gentlest-of-gentle trainers, and he likes the prongs because you can communicate a correction with many dogs with just a little wiggle of the leash--it's surprisingly easy on the the dog. The dogs need fewer corrections, and the corrections can be softer for many dogs than with other kinds of collars--a mild pressure that gently reminds the dog what it's supposed to be doing.

Also, your statement overlooks the enthusiasm with which so many highly traineddogs perform. Ever watched a utility dog's focus on its handler? You can't get that kind of focus without a bond. Or the joyous enthusiasm of a skilled agility dog running a course? That's handler-bond too. Or the delight in the play-reward given to a working K9 who earns its Kong after doing an intense scent-sweep of a location? Also handler-bond.

You may well have seen some people who are incompetent with their dogs -- there sure are plenty of the out there (my next door neighbor is one -- over the fence I hear: "FETCH! STUPID DOG! NO! BRING ME THE BALL! I SAID FETCH!"). If you watch people who have super-highly skilled dogs, though, I think you'll find many of the dogs aren't robots but are madly in love with their handlers, love what they do, and live to work.

[x11]

refreshing to hear - i started getting a poor attitude toward some high level competitors/trainers and even pet trainers with little justification and lots of assumptions.

pays to look at each case indivdually before the foot ends up in the mouth (again) or someone else's foot ends up in yr butt i guess.

i guess i perceive some people just wanting maximim convenience and maximum results with the least possible effort, somehow the dog gets lost.

thanks for comment

[ayoitzrimz]

Originally Posted by x11

refreshing to hear - i started getting a poor attitude toward some high level competitors/trainers and even pet trainers with little justification and lots of assumptions.

pays to look at each case indivdually before the foot ends up in the mouth (again) or someone else's foot ends up in yr butt i guess.

i guess i perceive some people just wanting maximim convenience and maximum results with the least possible effort, somehow the dog gets lost.

thanks for comment

Yea, we know. You use every chance you get to bash schutzhund and its "forearm dancing princess"(? ) and fancy "instant downs running at 1000 miles per hour"

The truth is training IS bonding. it's finding a common language with your dog that you both can understand. It opens a communication channel with your dog. You can bond with the dog all you like, and you most certainly need to have a bond with the dog if you plan to use any compulsion (which doesn't mean beating on the dog or constant correction, for example the forced hold) but just by showing your dog that YOU are the source of all things good in this world and that obedience is the way to get those things from you, you start to change the dog's attitude towards you - trust builds between you and the dog - he knows he can trust you and that he is both safe and will be rewarded for following your direction. This creates a bond that they understand. Just my opinion.