How to break chase/kill instinct with cattle, etc.

[msvette2u]

Your first hurdle is to not anthropomorphize... the dog does not inherently know "right" vs "wrong" as we see it. Once you can understand that this isn't a moral decision making process on the part of the dog but rather a lack of impulse control over instinct, you'll be a lot better equipped to deal with the problem.

Best post ever We need this part as a sticky!

[NorthernLights]

Originally Posted by sparra

I don't see this as a rehabilitation issue, rather a management issue. Just don't leave the dog unsupervised around your stock.
We are on a farm here in OZ....we use our GSD around our sheep so he has pretty good self control but he is NEVER left unsupervised around our stock because I don't trust him OR our kelpie to not chase our sheep when we are not watching.
We have an invisible fence around our house yard so that the dogs can be in the yard and not have to be chained/kenneled or they are inside lounging around.
I don;t think it is any big shock to think your dog might chase and kill livestock.....there would be many dogs on this forum who, if given the chance would LOVE to do that.....difference is they aren't given the chance.
If your dad feels let down by the dog he needs to understand that the dog is a dog and if left to their own devices will chase and kill things.
As for killing your other dog.....I can imagine this is a hard thing to come to terms with but what is done is done......just need to manage the situation better to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Your dad doesn't need to get rid of the dog he just needs to make sure he can't hurt his livestock......something almost ALL of us on farms need to address.
Good Luck.

I am really not the best with words, so I absolutely LOVE your reply. Thank you very much. After much prayer last night, this all seemed very clear to me- basically everything you wrote. The situation with the cattledog was not his fault. Both of their behaviors should have been corrected from the start. I was heavily pregnant and didn't have it in me to drive out to the farm to deal with it. Growing up on the farm, I knew my dad thought it was normal for the dogs to have a pecking order, so I let it be, in hopes that it would work itself out. I/we don't see this GSD as visious/aggressive. The bulling he rec'd from the cattledog was not normal dominant dog behavior. Thank you for mentioning the underground fence...we were pondering that last night. Anyway, thank you again.

[NorthernLights]

Originally Posted by msvette2u

We use hotwire inside a 6' kennel-wire fence.
The dogs stay in the yard. The hotwire is posted at "nose level" and one at the top of the fence.

I agree with sparra.

As for the dog "knowing", the dog sees your dad angry, he's doing what dogs do, he doesn't "know" it's wrong.
He does know your dad gets angry when he does A or B, but to say he "knows it's wrong" isn't quite the way to look at it.

I think management would be good, and if your dad can't or doesn't want to do that, then probably euthanasia is the best solution.

Thank you!

[Lilie]

Your GSD took down a full grown (healthy) cow? Are you sure that you don't have a wolf problem that has caused your dog to become more aggressive and territorial?

I can understand your GSD feeding off downed cow carcass, but I have a hard time understanding a lone GSD taking down, killing, consuming a full grown cow.

[NorthernLights]

Originally Posted by LoveEcho

Your first hurdle is to not anthropomorphize... the dog does not inherently know "right" vs "wrong" as we see it. Once you can understand that this isn't a moral decision making process on the part of the dog but rather a lack of impulse control over instinct, you'll be a lot better equipped to deal with the problem. Lou is a phenomenal resource, I second the suggestion to contact him.

I would avoid the treadmill-- exercise alone will not tire a dog/stimulate a dog/train a dog. All it essentially does, without obedience work in addition, is give them more stamina to run amok. Do some serious obedience work with this dog...teach him impulse control, slowly. I'm not naive enough to think that that is by any means a cure, but it won't hurt. Do NILIF. "Territorial" is not necessarily a good thing and that sort of term tends to speak of fear aggression and insecurity-- not being able to tell if something/someone is a threat and the associated anxiety.

Work with the dog, but most importantly, manage. A dog is a dog, not a moral being (in the traditional sense, anyways). There is only so much that training will be able to accomplish, as other farmers here will tell you, so priority #1 is management, containment, etc.

Maybe territorial wasn't the right word. He loves his home and is a great watchdog. He isn't ever aggressive with any person he doesn't know, but he'll watch and stay close by until he knows that we are ok with them. He's protective over his home. He keeps the coyotes from coming on the farm. He and the other GSD are always with the kids when we're out there playing (just as all my GSD's were when I was growing up).

Thank you for your post. Very good information!

[sit,stay]

Originally Posted by NorthernLights

Thank you for mentioning the underground fence...we were pondering that last night.

A dog that has enough drive to take down cows is not going to be deterred by an underground fence. I would not trust one to safely contain this dog.
Sheilah

[pets4life]

euthanasia for a gsd doing something many gsds would do if they got a chance and got lucky its a giant chicken to them??? too much extra time and energy on their hands and nothing to do.


the dog probably just ham strung the cow and that caused it to die from blood loss, i dont think you guys realize how strong a gsd's bite force is.

I have a friend who lost a bunch of horned goats to a single gsd. And these were big goats with horns.


Also someone lost a few alpacas to one.


these animals are nothing but a big chunk of meat to a gsd some fight back good some don't

[NorthernLights]

Originally Posted by Lilie

Your GSD took down a full grown (healthy) cow? Are you sure that you don't have a wolf problem that has caused your dog to become more aggressive and territorial?

I can understand your GSD feeding off downed cow carcass, but I have a hard time understanding a lone GSD taking down, killing, consuming a full grown cow.

He "took down" a full grown cow on the ice. No one saw it happen (he was only unsupervised for 15 minutes, so he hadn't been with it long), but found him chewing on the cows leg with the other gsd standing by it barking. He didn't kill the cow, just injured it. I'm thinking the cow may have already been down on the ice and maybe the dog went on him. Or during the chase the cow slipped on the ice and couldn't get back up. There are many coyotes around but they don't get to the cattle bc the dogs are around.

[NorthernLights]

Originally Posted by sit,stay

A dog that has enough drive to take down cows is not going to be deterred by an underground fence. I would not trust one to safely contain this dog.
Sheilah

That's what I thought too, but need to research it. Thanks!

[pets4life]

and the dog thing like the forum members always say is just like 2 bitches that don't get along only this time it is 2 males. If you are not careful one is going to die. There is no working around it.