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Old 11-27-2012, 01:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default A video showing dominance/submission that I made

A club member was unclear about her dogs interactions so I offered to show her dominance/submissive behaviors at my house. I put her in the drivers seat with a bowl of food so she could see the interactions as I pointed them out. I figured I'd then record some of it for anyones benefit on here. Of course feel free to dispute everything I annotate in the video lol as I am sure thats coming anyway.

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Old 11-27-2012, 02:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Pack dynamics...very interesting.

I only have one dog, my parents have 3 and there is definitely a hierarchy and settle things that I think most owners would overlook, but there's meaning in almost every gesture.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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If they were my dogs, I'd never let things progress like that.
I've heard it said the worst aggressors are sometimes social climbers. The confident alpha doesn't need to fight to win it's position. Which means, quite possibly, the snarling dog isn't the alpha at all.

That snarling dog would have to sit and wait on one side.
Why isn't the owner saying something to the dog?? Is that how she normally is??

One of the least "dominant" dogs of our pack "play attacks" the alpha girl. The alpha girl ignores it completely - it's not worth her time. The little dog play attacks because it's not a full on attack, it's like a "show" of attack (play).
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I agree that would never have been allowed to occur at my house. Jager is just being a bully.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:31 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msvette2u View Post
If they were my dogs, I'd never let things progress like that.
I've heard it said the worst aggressors are sometimes social climbers. The confident alpha doesn't need to fight to win it's position. Which means, quite possibly, the snarling dog isn't the alpha at all.

That snarling dog would have to sit and wait on one side.
Why isn't the owner saying something to the dog?? Is that how she normally is??

One of the least "dominant" dogs of our pack "play attacks" the alpha girl. The alpha girl ignores it completely - it's not worth her time. The little dog play attacks because it's not a full on attack, it's like a "show" of attack (play).
First, I am the owner. The foster dog is the new dog in the pack that initially had no idea how to interact with other dogs and defaulted to fear-aggression. He also bowed up at me a few times before he understood the nature of our relationship. Major leaps forward in his behavior due largely to me cautiously allowing nature to run its course.

What Jäger is doing is not aggression, it is dominant behavior. When the other dogs overstep their bounds he reminds them of their lower position. In turn, Katya does this to Aska (not in the video) as she is the dominant female of the house. Not allowing dogs to measure each other and sort things out is more problematic in my opinion. This is totally different than a bully. All the dogs "play attack" Jäger and he doesn't respond with dominant posturing in that case. Food will, because the rituals around food are very important parts of dog's social interactions. You did not see any fighting in the video, nor was there any risk of a fight breaking out. You saw the dogs communicating with each other, nothing more. It is the subtle posturing that communicates challenges to authority or refusal to submit and this is what I meant to point out in the video.

I have 4 dogs living in peace that eat, sleep, and play together. No fights. So, clearly you could agree there must be some measure of merit in my methods.

"worst aggressors are sometimes social climbers". True, in that this is how dominant dogs rise to the alpha position, if you replace "worst aggressors" with "most dominant". This is just nature. The same things happen in all social animals, including humans (the military, the corporate world, etc). The most aggressive (in many senses of the word) always become the most dominant
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdraven View Post
I agree that would never have been allowed to occur at my house. Jager is just being a bully.
If you look close, you'll notice he does not try to take food from Koal or food she is handing to Koal. A bully would. Its a fine (and arbitrary) line where you divide "bully" from "dominant", but it is clear in this video Jäger is only clearly claiming his space.

By "not allowing it", you're only ensuring it happens when you are not present to do anything about it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Well my feeling on it is...a dog showing his teeth and snarling is eventually going to meet a dog who can whip it's behind, or who thinks it can...and the "underdog" will retaliate.

We go very slow with foster intros for that reason, primarily.

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By "not allowing it", you're only ensuring it happens when you are not present to do anything about it.
That's why God created crates
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Same behavior in wolves
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msvette2u View Post
Well my feeling on it is...a dog showing his teeth and snarling is eventually going to meet a dog who can whip it's behind, or who thinks it can...and the "underdog" will retaliate.

We go very slow with foster intros for that reason, primarily.


That's why God created crates
I don't need crates Thats why God created social hierarchies.

We have had zero fights with the foster... Zero.

Strong nerved confident dogs only fight in a social context when their dominant nature is so close as to prevent either dog from submitting. Anytime there is a reasonable difference in the level of dominant nature/personality it is resolved through these sort of ritual behaviors. Dogs do it, male lions fight violently (but do not extend their claws... because its a ritual no matter how violent it looks), nearly every pack animal has specific rituals to maintain a social order. The above videos show dog rituals clearly.

Jäger acted submissively to a neighbors 12 year old neutered lab (who had not a dominant bone in him). Why? dunno. He just decided to show submissive "puppy like" behavior to this old dog. Always did until he passed from cancer. Jäger has never been in a dog fight, FYI.
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Last edited by hunterisgreat; 11-27-2012 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Problem is, our dogs are not wolves. WE are the pack leaders, not they.
That snarling behavior is going to get the dog's behind whipped at some point -you say not correcting it is okay because "they'll do it when your back is turned".

My experience is, a sneaky dog will wait until your back is turned and retaliate on the snarling dog.

Just behavior we nip in the bud here. Always. Every time.
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