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Old 11-27-2012, 07:36 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I was witnessing a dog that is supposedly a confident alpha dog acting snarky at other dogs that are clearly already waiting their turn and submitting. I guess what I would expect to see is all three dogs just sitting there and taking the food in turn. The foster dog looked very well behaved to me, not at all like the ones that come through here (who would be DIVING into that food bowl repeatedly).
Well quite simply don't have strongly dominate dogs. Also, I believe you've missed some subtle ques of challenging behavior. It's very subtle, bur to the dog it is clear
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:39 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Just my opinion which I am applying my own similar experience with our past dogs and the same behavior we had to diagnose, learn to recognize, and then correct. I am no expert on this, but I would like to share my opinions.

So here we go

Koal was not submissive he was indifferent to the behavior. Jägers was not the dominant dog in this scenario. You better be very careful because a day will come where Jägers may give the look/teeth showing and Koal may feel threatened or challenged leading him to defend himself. I would not allow Jägers to be that close to me while feeding or display that behavior. You just actually reinforced it by not correcting him and allowing it to go on. This can be a very serious situation if those two get into it. I do not want to see those dogs get into a fight. I also do not want to see you or anyone else in the house get hurt if they get into it. You can correct the behavior now instead of later and prevent a nasty fight by letting Jägers know this is unacceptable and drive the message loud and clear. Katya you can tell she is submissive and she makes it clear she is not a threat or challenge.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:46 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Well quite simply don't have strongly dominate dogs. Also, I believe you've missed some subtle ques of challenging behavior. It's very subtle, bur to the dog it is clear
Sorry I don't understand the first sentence. I'm sure I missed all of the subtle cues because honestly I lack the patience to analyze dog behavior this carefully. As long as dogs aren't trying to boss me around and aren't escalating fights with each other, I don't really pay much attention to what they are doing and why around here, too many dogs going in and out my doors and many with much larger issues (usually medical) than whether or not they would let a dog like Nikon bear his teeth at them over some kibble. If you are trying to say that a dog is not dominant if he doesn't snarl at other dogs over kibble I will respectfully disagree, I know plenty of very confident, dominant dogs that don't feel the need to stoop to that level because they already know the kibble is theirs, or they are dominant around other dogs but not so dominant that they are willing to challenge the handler on who is getting fed what (my first dog was super dominant around other dogs but almost the complete opposite with people, skittish to a fault at times, it was rather odd, she probably would have been the happiest as a feral dog living with a dog pack and fending for herself).
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:02 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Just my opinion which I am applying my own similar experience with our past dogs and the same behavior we had to diagnose, learn to recognize, and then correct. I am no expert on this, but I would like to share my opinions.

So here we go

Koal was not submissive he was indifferent to the behavior. Jägers was not the dominant dog in this scenario. You better be very careful because a day will come where Jägers may give the look/teeth showing and Koal may feel threatened or challenged leading him to defend himself. I would not allow Jägers to be that close to me while feeding or display that behavior. You just actually reinforced it by not correcting him and allowing it to go on. This can be a very serious situation if those two get into it. I do not want to see those dogs get into a fight. I also do not want to see you or anyone else in the house get hurt if they get into it. You can correct the behavior now instead of later and prevent a nasty fight by letting Jägers know this is unacceptable and drive the message loud and clear. Katya you can tell she is submissive and she makes it clear she is not a threat or challenge.
He was indifferent.. that was the issue. He didn't submit to a "request to submit". Koal doesn't feel the need to "defend" himself because Jäger doesn't continue after he submits. If he felt threatened he'd hackle his fur. He used to, all the time, at the site of any other dog. I don't believe you have a good understanding of what you saw
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:12 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Sorry I don't understand the first sentence. I'm sure I missed all of the subtle cues because honestly I lack the patience to analyze dog behavior this carefully. As long as dogs aren't trying to boss me around and aren't escalating fights with each other, I don't really pay much attention to what they are doing and why around here, too many dogs going in and out my doors and many with much larger issues (usually medical) than whether or not they would let a dog like Nikon bear his teeth at them over some kibble. If you are trying to say that a dog is not dominant if he doesn't snarl at other dogs over kibble I will respectfully disagree, I know plenty of very confident, dominant dogs that don't feel the need to stoop to that level because they already know the kibble is theirs, or they are dominant around other dogs but not so dominant that they are willing to challenge the handler on who is getting fed what (my first dog was super dominant around other dogs but almost the complete opposite with people, skittish to a fault at times, it was rather odd, she probably would have been the happiest as a feral dog living with a dog pack and fending for herself).
Thats not what I said at all... devil is in the details. I meant to convey that if you have a dog that does not stand his ground when another attempts to challenge him for what is his, he is not a dominate dog but a submissive one.

In the video there is zero challenge as to who feeds what. I shot a video just for you just now. As you see here, absolutely no challenge to who I choose to give the ball too... unfortunately Koal has zero drive so he doesn't really want the ball, but the point still stands. Also note the little passive-aggressive "passes" Koal makes at Jäger... this is near constant. And note that Jäger doesn't even attempt to get the ball he *just had* when it rolls *onto his feet*... Jäger's tolerance of Koals "taunts" is actually far beyond the other dogs:

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:35 PM   #66 (permalink)
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He was indifferent.. that was the issue. He didn't submit to a "request to submit". Koal doesn't feel the need to "defend" himself because Jäger doesn't continue after he submits. If he felt threatened he'd hackle his fur. He used to, all the time, at the site of any other dog. I don't believe you have a good understanding of what you saw
You know your dogs and how to read them some people may have a similar problem and we all know every dog is different. Sometimes the fur does not have to be hackled this can be a simple dead on look with specific body language in the blink of an eye. Some dogs are different and the worst ones do not give you any indication or warning. You know what your pack does, how to read them, and how to handle it. Which is really good.

The point I am stressing is I do not allow teeth showing, a dog standing that close to me hovering while feeding whether I have a pack or not. They must be calm, relaxed and at a respectable distance. Even though a dog may submit for you problems can happen so fast among the dogs and if a opportunity comes along they may go at it. This is a good video and I am glad you posted it so people like myself can see and learn from this. It is always nice to compare experiences with our dogs.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:47 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Just something I thought you guys might enjoy watching this thread. Someone mentioned the dog is being rewarded for snarling. check this out!

Counter conditioning a dog who reacts aggressively to being blown at in the face.

Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:02 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Also I think how someone lets their pack interact should be based on the pack and the person and what they are comfortable with. I myself am more familiar with behavior. I interrupt behavior that goes directly against my orders which is NO FIGHTING and NO AGGRESSION TOWARDS PUPPIES or young dogs.

I am personally comfortable with what you see in the video. If that were one of my males being challenged by a younger male then I would allow it to continue as LONG as it remained fair. Then again scenarios like this don't really happen in my house. If snarling ensues I help fix the issue. I would have told the foster to sit and behave to "back my dog up". If the dog in the "submissive" position is unstable and lacks recognition of the authoritative dog you must evaluate the reason. is the dog just dense? Is the dog actually challenging? Why is the dog challenging? is it lacking self preservation and going to result in a nasty fight? or is the dog slowly learning? Allow the dog to slowly learn in that case. The only reason I have seen fights break out in the scenario you see above is when a dog involved is unstable. That being said my dogs are personally very comfortable with one another and eating. They respect my authority and know that I will give everyone the same amount and there is nothing to guard or be upset about. So we don't see snarling. I do see snarling when a new dog enters the pack and is absolutely clueless about behavior. So I allow them to learn in a supervised and safe manner. The dogs are VERY fair and good at teaching so I sit back and let them do the work.

I don't create artificial structures or force someone to be submissive because I said so. But I do reinforce and back up what dogs say. If a submissive dog is being bullied, I will help them. If a dominant dog is being challenged by an idiot dog, I will help them. We are a pack. We work together. This varies depending on the pack to each his own
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:02 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Just something I thought you guys might enjoy watching this thread. Someone mentioned the dog is being rewarded for snarling. check this out!

Counter conditioning a dog who reacts aggressively to being blown at in the face.

Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
He snarls ****after**** getting the food lol.. wrong order
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:08 PM   #70 (permalink)
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He snarls ****after**** getting the food lol.. wrong order
Exactly
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