Kira's reaction to a rauscous house full of guests?

[Anthony8858]

Originally Posted by carmspack

Dang - I said only one post on this -- okay so maybe two .

From the view point of your guests . What did they do when the dog snapped and walked around the room like some possessed beast , all hackles and tail . This is such a serious warning from the dog who has entered the fear aggressive zone where in her mental state she may have been unavailable to you calling her , or may have been so overloaded with stimulation and anxiety that she may have snapped at you when you tried to get her by the collar - if she was even wearing one (as I am seeing more and more "naked" dogs) . You are so lucky that there wasn't more damage to the incident. What if the person had hit the dog out of surprise or screamed out of surprise - then you would have had real life decoy-work in your living room.
When you have guests they should be comfortable and uninhibited , not guarding their actions or not enjoying themselves. Not everyone likes GSD's , many people have issues from bad experiences as a child, not everyone likes dogs . Don't get yourself into the position where you will have some law suit from a bite that could have should have been prevented.
This is the dogs nature .
the end.

Carmen, (I knew you couldn't resist)

Your concerns are valid, but not YET with Kira. She doesn't have a GSD personality as we expect it to be. At least in MY EYES, not yet. She's very passive, super friendly, and to be honest, doesn't even growl at anything other than the cat that keeps going into our garbage. All the guests knew her, and everyone petted her. When she started to "get excited", they first laughed and said "hey, your puppy wants to play". As I walked over I can see that something excited her, and she was going from guest to guest nipping at their pants leg (mouthing), but not making actual contact. I called her off a couple times, and each time she responded, and (as you mention) tested my authority. She kept going back for more. That was MY RED FLAG. Kira ALWAYS listens to my commands. In this case, I sense that she was going "someplace else". She was as excited as she would be if I was holding her frisbee, and getting ready to fling it. Something changed from 3 minutes prior. From what I'm getting from this thread, she passed her threshold of stress tolerance. That's when I crated her. She was sleeping a few minutes later.

Carmen, after reading your response above, I can't help but to realize how right you are, and easily this could have been tragic. Maybe I am guilty of taking her timid personality for granted.Maybe my expectations of her exceed her ability to stay balanced. Maybe I've "humanized" her to the point of forgetting that she's a dog, and she could react, and cause physical harm to someone.

I know there are times where most feel I get beat up for some of my threads, but I'll admit that they may be deserving from your perspective. From the outside looking in, not only have i set her up to fail, but I may have put others in harm's way. I honestly didn't see all this.
Kira's maturing, and she's capable of anything. I happen to look at her as a gentle puppy.

Thank you

[sparra]

Originally Posted by carmspack

Dang - I said only one post on this -- okay so maybe two .

From the view point of your guests . What did they do when the dog snapped and walked around the room like some possessed beast , all hackles and tail . This is such a serious warning from the dog who has entered the fear aggressive zone where in her mental state she may have been unavailable to you calling her , or may have been so overloaded with stimulation and anxiety that she may have snapped at you when you tried to get her by the collar - if she was even wearing one (as I am seeing more and more "naked" dogs) . You are so lucky that there wasn't more damage to the incident. What if the person had hit the dog out of surprise or screamed out of surprise - then you would have had real life decoy-work in your living room.
When you have guests they should be comfortable and uninhibited , not guarding their actions or not enjoying themselves. Not everyone likes GSD's , many people have issues from bad experiences as a child, not everyone likes dogs . Don't get yourself into the position where you will have some law suit from a bite that could have should have been prevented.
This is the dogs nature .
the end.

Carmen is 100% right......Good for you realizing this may have been a very bad situation
My dog is very stable....no temperament issues. If we have other kids over he is put away. We recently had my hubby's 40th with more than a house full......he was away from all the action in the kennel with our other dog......no way were they going to be around all those people......don't feel guilty about putting her away.....she will thank you for it!!

[Anthony8858]

Originally Posted by sparra

Carmen is 100% right......Good for you realizing this may have been a very bad situation
My dog is very stable....no temperament issues. If we have other kids over he is put away. We recently had my hubby's 40th with more than a house full......he was away from all the action in the kennel with our other dog......no way were they going to be around all those people......don't feel guilty about putting her away.....she will thank you for it!!

How else would I know these things, if I wasn't willing to throw myself out there ?

I'll keep taking my lumps.... I may not be on par with many around here, but I'm light years ahead of the guy standing next to me at Petco.

[doggiedad]

you know you really need to wake up and stop
romanticizing about Kira's behaviour. you put
her in bad situations then you're baffled by her
behaviour.

[Anthony8858]

Originally Posted by doggiedad

you know you really need to wake up and stop
romanticizing about Kira's behaviour. you put
her in bad situations then you're baffled by her
behaviour.

Can I ask you a question?

Do you go to dog parks?

Answer truthfully, because I know the answer.

[doggiedad]

i go to the dog park in my neighbor. i take my dog
to the woods where there's 10 to 25 dogs playing.
i take my dog to parties, i have parties. we visit
people. people visit us and bring their dogs. we go
to restaraunts, bars, stores, etc. i have a "go everywhere" dog.

Originally Posted by Anthony8858

Can I ask you a question?

Do you go to dog parks?

Answer truthfully, because I know the answer.

[Anthony8858]

Originally Posted by doggiedad

i go to the dog park in my neighbor. i take my dog
to the woods where there's 10 to 25 dogs playing.
i take my dog to parties, i have parties. we visit
people. people visit us and bring their dogs. we go
to restaraunts, bars, stores, etc. i have a "go everywhere" dog.

I'm glad you answered honestly, because in my opinion, there's just as much of a chance that your dog is put into a "bad situation" as anyone else.

Why is it OK for your dog to run with 25 dogs in a dog park? Is it because you know your dog's tolerance level, or you trust the other dogs to behave? Either way, there's always a chance that something could go terribly wrong.

I'm curious how you know that he'll never get too excited at a party, or fight with a Mastif at the dog park?

Did your dog tell you this?

[carmspack]

Anthony , he said he has a "go everywhere" dog.

You do not.

Your DOG keeps on telling you , PEOPLE on the forum keep telling you, that your dog is not this type , and can't handle it .

To this point the dog has always responded in a fear - FLIGHT . You go back in all the exchanges that we have had and you will find one where I said the day will come when she will be overloaded and bite someone (instead of get her self out of the picture).

That day has come.

She did not retreat to a quiet corner , in some other room.

She stressed to the point where she took the other option, can't go into flight , so must go into fight.

She was not cutely trying to clear the room. She was trying to find relief .

[bocron]

Originally Posted by Anthony8858

Why is it OK for your dog to run with 25 dogs in a dog park? Is it because you know your dog's tolerance level, or you trust the other dogs to behave? Either way, there's always a chance that something could go terribly wrong.

This is a matter of understanding the dog(s) you have and being able to anticipate their behavior the majority of the time. Also, if you have a steady, clear headed dog, the other dogs will absolutely pick up on it and act accordingly. As you have mentioned in other posts I believe, Kira also has the ability to bring out the punk in other dogs. This is not uncommon and that is they kind of dog who should only socialize under very experienced supervision.

We have 9 GSDs, 7 are WL and 2 are WGSL. Of those 9, 7 of them are "go everywhere" dogs. The remaining 2 are less thrilled with certain situations but we know that. The one female is fine 99% of the time and has gotten better over the 2 years we've owned her (we got her as an older pup). We understand her temperament and we push her when we feel we should and back off when it will be detrimental to her advancement. She is rock solid with other dogs, so I take her to our dog park every day. But we have been doing this for more years than I'd like to admit so I feel we have a good grasp of how to deal with it. The male is just a big, busy boy who could care less about people other than us and doesn't enjoy playing with other dogs so we don't put him in those situations as a matter of habit. When we do, he is extremely obedient and I don't worry about him, but other people are nervous around him. He is one of those "serious" dogs who just gives off a vibe. So I don't feel the need to force people to be around him, except the Schutzhund club folks who all find him a delight. He has never growled or barked inappropriately, much less made contact, he just looks at people a certain way and they get uncomfortable.
We have plenty of clients who have dogs that sound a bit more like your Kira. I am constantly stressing to them that they are playing with fire when they put her in a situation that has the potential of pushing the dog into fight or flight. When that response is at the top of their psyche, eventually it will be fight. The nipping of guests was a little bit of flight forward, if it continues she will up the ante. Since that didn't work, she will have to try harder next time she feels pressured.
Like you've said you are pretty much a novice and the hand you are playing is a tough one. I appreciate the time you spend on here trying to make her life the best it could be, but this is not generally a condition that can be cured, it is a condition that will need to be managed. When she hits 7-8 years old, she will most likely morph into a more blasé dog about things, but that will also depend on how she is allowed to mature from this point on.

[Anthony8858]

Bocron,
Thanks for understanding.
Just a quick question ...
How do you know your dogs' limits? Were they pushed ?
And if so, would I be wrong to assume that you would never push them again.

Could we both agree that I've now learned about Kira's limit with regard to parties?
After all, I did learn that dog parks are off limits, and I now avoid them.

Carmen, I completely understand and don't disagree. I'm not arguing any points. I recognize my dogs' shortcomings to the best of my ability.
My point with Doggiedad, was HOW does one know they have a " go everywhere dog"? Many people take their dogs to dog parks, until something happens. Doggiedad seems 100% certain that nothing could happen. Why is he so confident?
Is it genetic? From what I've learned from you and many others, it might be.
Is it the handler or owner? Did I do this to my dog? Seems like a good possibility.

Now to backpedal over the past year, I've done tons of "go everywhere" socializing with Kira. She has no problem going everywhere.
She does have her limits, such as dog parks , and the now obvious loud parties.

My point is how would one determine a dogs' " go everywhere" personality, without actually being out in that situation?
Is this something an average dog owner should be able to determine, without pushing the limits?.

I occasionally meet up with her trainer from her beginner class, and her trainer thinks she's amazing. She would never know Kira's "other side " without actually witnessing it.
Should she?


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