Kira's reaction to a rauscous house full of guests?

[N Smith]

Originally Posted by Anthony8858

I appreciate your thoughts on this. I don't totally disagree with Carmen and Freestep's response. I disagree with the way they regard me as a dog owner. I'm expected to know as much as they do, and I don't.
I agree that Kira showed stress, but not initially. How would I have known?
Does everyone remove their dogs from parties? If so, then this is a new one for me.

I have a few questions:

1) If Kira is normally very social, and unfazed by people and company, why would I remove her, if she hasn't shown me that she can't be around a room full of people?

2) Should I have anticipated that the music and alcohol would have an adverse effect on her?

And just to clarify... Kira was loose for a good hour or so, before showing a change in her behavior. People were marveling over how polite she was. I taught her to mind her manners to guests, and allow people to enter my home at will. She goes into a down, stay when I open the door, and doesn't bother anyone.
That's why I questioned the turnaround in behavior.

Just curious....

What do the rest of you do with your dogs, if you have a get together? (assuming your dog is friendly, of course)

#1. Yes, she should have been removed prior to guests arriving. This was a party and you knew there would be alcohol served and that people may get loud and act out in a way they may not while sober. Unless Kira has NEVER shown any stress behaviors around people/places/situations, then she should have been put up. If this was the first time she has ever shown the behaviors, then it was your "learning" chance. If this was not the first time, then this was more of a "got lucky the dog didn't do more damage" chance. How many times do you want to push that envelope?

#2, It wasn't the music or alcohol that had the effect on her, it was the people's behavior changes that caused her to start stressing. It is a well known rule in the dog world that you should never work/handle/walk/do anything with your dog when you are not 100% in control. If you are under the influence of alcohol or drugs, you no longer have that control, so leave the dog out of the picture.

As for my personal dogs, my 2 Shepherds have NO temperament issues, and have travelled with me all over ****'s half acre, sleeping in hotel rooms, being searched at the border because we had "oranges", have done bite prevention classes with kids 4months - 4years, walked in the Canada Day Parade, done Canada Day demos in a park with 10,000 people all around us.....AND STILL...if I was having a party, where I knew people would be consuming alcohol, I would put them away before any guests EVER got there!

All IMO, but hopefully its an opinion you will find useful!

[bocron]

All of our dogs are very well socialized and overall are very steady in and around new people, things and places. We have one female who is a bit nervy in certain circumstances, but there is almost no rhyme or reason to it so we just anticipate and don't ever leave anything to chance.
When we have a gathering, we usually let the dogs be around as guests arrive so they are aware they are in the house and that this is an "approved" happening. Then I will take all the dogs and crate them. We usually leave out Gryff, the old guy since he is a total love bug and he will take himself off to his bed in my office when he's had enough.
So, even though I really have no worries in my dogs, I don't leave them out.
Having said that, I will leave a few dogs out when we host the Schutzhund club since they are all obviously dog savvy and the dogs all know everyone very well and are well behaved around them.

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

Anthony! *I* had trouble being at gatherings with 15 or so Staten Islanders! THE VOLUME! So I am going to make an assumption and guess that the amount of noise that night was significantly greater than in many other parties with similar number of guests. Unless you had friends from some exchange program in Greenwich CT...it was probably a lot of fun but also chaotic and LOUD.

I took 2 of my dogs on a Home Visit for a family originally from Brooklyn. Real Brooklyn, not hipster Brooklyn. There were 2 main adults, 2 other adults, 2 kids. My dogs literally were immobilized by the noise and the gesturing. They sat on either side of me, totally overwhelmed by the volume. There was no alcohol, it was a Sunday afternoon, and it was just a visit, not a party. My dogs looked like the statues they used to have as prizes on Wheel of Fortune. I had a blast and loved that family, but had selected my 2 most people oriented dogs - dogs that would tolerate things on a home check. And we were only there about 2 hours, some of that outside, which helped. Still, it was a lot. If needed, I would have put them in the car.

sit, stay's post was great. I think NSmiths opinion is pretty good too and bottom line on all of these posts is to not let it happen again, of course.

My bottom line is I don't always need to know the why of behavior, I just need to...
A. set the dog up to succeed as much as possible
B. try not to let something go on too long or push things too far when I see that I am not achieving A

Those things sound easy, but they aren't always so (oh, look how great he's doing with that dog - chomp - whoops) because sometimes optimism trumps reality. This is a good one to learn from and be thankful that she did not escalate.

[qbchottu]

Originally Posted by carmspack

to add to that I would not put the best, most stable temperament dogs in that situation - not for fear of what the dog may do , but out of respect to the animal who does not need to deal with people harrasing him , getting silly with a few stiff drinks --

Yup.

Originally Posted by Anthony8858

What do the rest of you do with your dogs, if you have a get together? (assuming your dog is friendly, of course)

Depends on the dog. Wiva can be out - she will just chill by my feet and not bat an eye at others. She just doesn't care about anyone not her handler and is a perfect aloof GSD. Whiskey will get irritated and police anyone loud or aggressive so he gets put away when people get slurry. My rescue dogs will need to be put away and crated/kennel far away from the noise/chaos. They cannot handle the stress and chaos.

[1sttimeforgsd]

Maybe Kira is like me when I am in a loud and crowded place, I feel like a longtailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

[JakodaCD OA]

I have had parties occasionally, none of my gsd's cared in the least, I never put them up, they weren't social butterflies, just went with the flow

My aussies on the otherhand, particularly my female, is a soft thing, and she does stress when there are more than a few people around, therefore, she is put up so she doesn't 'have' to stress.

I won't comment on Kira's behavior, because I didn't see it I CAN tell you tho, Masi is no social butterfly, UNLESS, it's a person with booze on their breath, I don't drink, my husband doesn't drink, but that dog is "attracted" to boozers

If she came across a stranger she would have no interest in them, if that "stranger" was drunk, or had booze on their breath, she'd be all over them like a big sloppy lush. Why? I have no clue, but the drunker the better for her. I have concluded if I were ever attacked by a drunk person, Masi would be no help..

Anthony, Masi woulda loved your party))

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by Anthony8858

Yes I do recall her issues in the past. I feel that she got past them, and has since become very welcoming in my home.

"getting past" something implies that a switch has been flipped and the dog no longer has any issues with it. This is not exactly true. Kira's nature is not that of a happy-go-lucky, laid-back, roll-with-the-punches kind of girl. She has weak nerves, and that is neither her fault nor yours--it's simply what God gave her, and you must always be aware of it--this is her CORE temperament. You have done a world of good for her, as evidenced by the fact that she now is able to tolerate things that cause her stress... but only to a certain extent, and once that threshold is crossed, she's going to start acting out. You want to stop it before it gets to that point.

She *tolerates* social comings and goings to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean she is entirely comfortable. Just because you can't see signs of stress doesn't mean she isn't feeling it... she is being as stoic and as tolerant as she possibly can be, because she knows that it pleases you. But because of this, it's very easy to overdo it, and she may seem to "suddenly" snap... the stress was building all along.

NOW... To talk about her threshold... That's another story. Isn't that a learning experience? Is there a sure fire way of knowing a dogs' tolerance level, without actually pushing it?

Yes. You know she is not entirely comfortable with a lot of social commotion where strangers are involved. It is best to simply keep her out of those situations. Don't "test" her. Don't pressure her. She needs to feel safe and secure, but she also wants to please you. This will cause her conflict if pleasing you means doing something she is not comfortable with. You need to be the one to provide safety and security, to give her "permission" to avoid stressful situations. You should always be aware of her comfort levels and of the kinds of things that bother her. Big dogs, parties, lots of commotion and excitement. When in doubt, remove her from any situation that has caused her stress in the past.

I apologize if I come off as a screwed up dog owner, that puts his dog in bad spots, but these spots may not be as recognizable to me, as they may be to you.

I think some of you should be thankful that I'm a caring, loving dog owner, trying my best to learn as much as possible from the many knowledgable folks here.

Sorry if we're constantly coming off as "let's beat up Anthony because he made another mistake". I don't think anyone here doubts you are a caring, loving dog owner--just a clumsy one at times. I don't mean that as an insult. Heck, I might know dogs but I can't parallel park worth a dang, and my husband is always laughing at me... "how long have you been driving?"

Believe me, it's frustrating to ME to see you going through these contortions with Kira, because it seems to me like you should have "gotten it" by now... but this is your first GSD, and you don't have a lot of experience with dogs in general, and it's easy for me to forget that things that are second nature to me are totally new ground for you. It's a learning curve, and it's not your problem that other people like me are impatient and frustrated that you aren't "getting it" as quickly as we think you should.

[Anthony8858]

Originally Posted by Freestep

"getting past" something implies that a switch has been flipped and the dog no longer has any issues with it. This is not exactly true. Kira's nature is not that of a happy-go-lucky, laid-back, roll-with-the-punches kind of girl. She has weak nerves, and that is neither her fault nor yours--it's simply what God gave her, and you must always be aware of it--this is her CORE temperament. You have done a world of good for her, as evidenced by the fact that she now is able to tolerate things that cause her stress... but only to a certain extent, and once that threshold is crossed, she's going to start acting out. You want to stop it before it gets to that point.

She *tolerates* social comings and goings to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean she is entirely comfortable. Just because you can't see signs of stress doesn't mean she isn't feeling it... she is being as stoic and as tolerant as she possibly can be, because she knows that it pleases you. But because of this, it's very easy to overdo it, and she may seem to "suddenly" snap... the stress was building all along.



Yes. You know she is not entirely comfortable with a lot of social commotion where strangers are involved. It is best to simply keep her out of those situations. Don't "test" her. Don't pressure her. She needs to feel safe and secure, but she also wants to please you. This will cause her conflict if pleasing you means doing something she is not comfortable with. You need to be the one to provide safety and security, to give her "permission" to avoid stressful situations. You should always be aware of her comfort levels and of the kinds of things that bother her. Big dogs, parties, lots of commotion and excitement. When in doubt, remove her from any situation that has caused her stress in the past.



Sorry if we're constantly coming off as "let's beat up Anthony because he made another mistake". I don't think anyone here doubts you are a caring, loving dog owner--just a clumsy one at times. I don't mean that as an insult. Heck, I might know dogs but I can't parallel park worth a dang, and my husband is always laughing at me... "how long have you been driving?"

Believe me, it's frustrating to ME to see you going through these contortions with Kira, because it seems to me like you should have "gotten it" by now... but this is your first GSD, and you don't have a lot of experience with dogs in general, and it's easy for me to forget that things that are second nature to me are totally new ground for you. It's a learning curve, and it's not your problem that other people like me are impatient and frustrated that you aren't "getting it" as quickly as we think you should.

Freestep,
Thank you for writing this ^^^^

It was beautifully explained, and well understood.

[DJEtzel]

I can understand where you're coming from, Anthony...

This is my take on it. I have a GSD that is likely very weak-nerved though has barely shown it... He used to growl at people if they grabbed him for pets and he didn't know them, on leash.

That's not going to stop me from taking him places, doing things with him (agility, dock diving, flyball, dog park) and having people over. Some people think I'm setting him up to fail, some people think he's amazing and incredible, some people don't know him and have no opinions. I know exactly what his threshold is that MIGHT illicit a growl, or has in the past, even though with the help of a trainer we have worked through this intensely. I don't let anyone pet him when he's leashed, and when we're at the dog park in the office, he stays by me, if anyone gets too interested in him I tell them he's pretty aloof with people and would prefer you to just throw a ball for "bonding" time instead of hug him like a bear... If I can't supervise, he's crated.

It took us a good 6 months to a year to figure out WHY exactly he was doing this, then to fix it (it was related to a medical issue, but being weak-nerved, it just kind of stuck around a bit, after) and carry on our lives. In that time we tried a lot of stuff, I had a lot of "helpers" test him and a lot of training happened. He was put in numerous different situations under my watchful eye (just like your situation!) to see where he would start getting stressed/agitated.

Now we're to the point where I know his threshold and keep him under it, I'm never going to push that for any reason, and I do all I can to ensure he stays under it, even if it means yelling at people or shoving them (which I have and will do to ensure my dog is safe and alive, even if it means getting an assault charge; I'm not going to lock my dog up in my house for the rest of his life... he's only 3) to avoid conflict/contact.

We can have people over just fine, anyone can walk into the house, he's not going to fret or get stressed like Kira might. I don't know how long you've had these issues with her or the full extent of them... but it seems like you're finally getting to the point where all-around in any circumstance you know exactly what she can and can't handle, as noted by the change in behavior. So now you need to start making sure you keep her below that threshold... if she started to act stressed after so many people or so long, or maybe when she finished her bone, don't wait as long next time. It's not to say that your dog can't be a dog and a part of the family and fun, just cut it short to avoid her feeling overwhelmed next time. Or, just let her meet everyone for a moment then put her back away, for an hour or so, then let her out again, so that she's still getting attention and potty breaks and you're not feeling like you are abandoning her, but she's still under threshold and safe.

I hope this makes sense, and good luck with her! I'm certainly used to being treated like an idiot about my dog from people online... whom have never even met him, most of whom who haven't even SEEN him. So don't feel too bad about what people say on the internet.

[carmspack]

Dang - I said only one post on this -- okay so maybe two .

From the view point of your guests . What did they do when the dog snapped and walked around the room like some possessed beast , all hackles and tail . This is such a serious warning from the dog who has entered the fear aggressive zone where in her mental state she may have been unavailable to you calling her , or may have been so overloaded with stimulation and anxiety that she may have snapped at you when you tried to get her by the collar - if she was even wearing one (as I am seeing more and more "naked" dogs) . You are so lucky that there wasn't more damage to the incident. What if the person had hit the dog out of surprise or screamed out of surprise - then you would have had real life decoy-work in your living room.
When you have guests they should be comfortable and uninhibited , not guarding their actions or not enjoying themselves. Not everyone likes GSD's , many people have issues from bad experiences as a child, not everyone likes dogs . Don't get yourself into the position where you will have some law suit from a bite that could have should have been prevented.
This is the dogs nature .
the end.