Do I need to give up?

[dianefbarfield]

Ok, please bear with me on this. I have a two year old female GSD. She came from a breeder but I found out not a great one. We have worked so hard with her for two years to train, obedience and just general stuff. At home with my husband and me she could not be sweeter. She loves our other dog, a bulldog, and she is fine with most adults.

Our problems are with other dogs and kids. For example, today while walking (we were out geocaching) we came upon a group of people playing football. They asked to see her and I walked her over. She was fine. The adults were petting her and she was just calm and sweet and they were saying how beautiful she was, etc. Then a middle school age kid came running over and tried to pet her and she went AFTER him. I was so scared. We avoided tragedy and he was fine although she nipped his elbow. His family was so nice, and apologized and said it was their fault. But really, how can I trust her? We have young grand children and we have to lock her away when they come. She just goes crazy. I have never been able to introduce her to another dog. She acts the same way, insane and aggressive.

I have had dogs all my life and the training methods are just not working with her. She seems just not to care about pleasing us. We have tried the head halters, and the e collar for walking and she still pulls us down the street after months of working hard with her. I am ready to give up. And most of all I am SCARED that I can't prevent her from hurting a child or another dog.

I am actually thinking of putting her down. I need your help. my phone is Please Contact OP For Phone #. I live in Georgia and I am desparate. help me save my Lizzie

[chelle]

Originally Posted by dianefbarfield

Ok, please bear with me on this. I have a two year old female GSD. She came from a breeder but I found out not a great one. We have worked so hard with her for two years to train, obedience and just general stuff. At home with my husband and me she could not be sweeter. She loves our other dog, a bulldog, and she is fine with most adults.

Our problems are with other dogs and kids. For example, today while walking (we were out geocaching) we came upon a group of people playing football. They asked to see her and I walked her over. She was fine. The adults were petting her and she was just calm and sweet and they were saying how beautiful she was, etc. Then a middle school age kid came running over and tried to pet her and she went AFTER him. I was so scared. We avoided tragedy and he was fine although she nipped his elbow. His family was so nice, and apologized and said it was their fault. But really, how can I trust her? We have young grand children and we have to lock her away when they come. She just goes crazy. I have never been able to introduce her to another dog. She acts the same way, insane and aggressive.

I have had dogs all my life and the training methods are just not working with her. She seems just not to care about pleasing us. We have tried the head halters, and the e collar for walking and she still pulls us down the street after months of working hard with her. I am ready to give up. And most of all I am SCARED that I can't prevent her from hurting a child or another dog.

I am actually thinking of putting her down. I need your help. my phone is 2297987003. I live in Georgia and I am desparate. help me save my Lizzie

Was she socialized when she was young? Did she attend formal group type sessions outside of your home? Is this new behavior or has it always been like this?

You said the "middle age school kid came running up..." -- Did he catch her by surprise? Not that that justifies the response, but wondering.

Have you done NILIF ? (Nothing in life is free)

You mentioned ecollar and halters -- have you ever considered using a prong?

Those are just a few questions that might help others give you better advice. I don't have any advice other than to say I think you really need some personal, one-on-one training with someone experienced with reactive dogs.

Oh and on last note, I don't think it is about "pleasing" you. She's reactive.

[msvette2u]

I am torn on this issue.

I want to say "keep trying" but it's one thing to have a dog who is aggressive and it's another thing to have an aggressive dog you cannot control.

We can't say if this dog is fear aggressive or reactive, or whatever, actually, and labeling it isn't as important as addressing the most important thing here and that's the owner's ability to handle this dog.

A 1-1 trainer /behaviorist would be a very good thing right now. In person. We on the 'net can only guess at the root and treatment of this behavior.

[dianefbarfield]

She was not socialized, came from a bad situation. She was only 7 weeks old when we got her but there had been mistreatment in the kennels. She was terrified of water because hoses had been sprayed into the cages to clean them, etc. she is so sweet with us and family and adults. I am terrified that she will hurt a child.

[Lucy Dog]

When you walk her... are you using a prong collar? If you are, are you sure it's on her correctly? A prong would probably help control the pulling a lot. Forget the e-collar... that doesn't seem right for this specific dog since she should never be off leash in public anyways.

I wouldn't put a dog down because she doesn't like other dogs. Who cares if the dog can't play with outside dogs? The only friends these dogs need is their own pack and you say she's great in the house.

The same goes for people on walks. When people ask to pet her, just say no. She's not comfortable with it, so just don't allow it. There's no need to risk someone getting nipped or bit.

Manage the dog. Control who she goes up to and who goes up to her. Don't put her in situations where she's allowed to make her own decision - YOU make the decisions for her.

[dianefbarfield]

I knew I would get help and suggestions here....you are all wonderful.
We do control her and we always have her on leash. We use the ecollar on the lowest setting to encourage her only...especially to teach the heel which has been a major problem.

My fear is that there will be a situation that I can't prevent. I have had some good suggestions about trainers tonight and I will follow up. We have been to basic obedience training and we have worked with her ourselves based upon our experiences with other dogs. but for some reason we are not very successful. And the reactive thing is just dangerous.

I don't want to do anything drastic...I have never even considered that with any other dog in my life. I just don't understand how Lizzie can be so sweet and calm and then "go off" without warning.

[Lucy Dog]

Originally Posted by dianefbarfield

I don't want to do anything drastic...I have never even considered that with any other dog in my life. I just don't understand how Lizzie can be so sweet and calm and then "go off" without warning.

Fear most likely caused by weak nerves. Things in the outside world scare her and she knows by barking and reacting will get those scary things away from her.

As others mentioned, a behaviorist or good trainer would be a good first step.

[selzer]

I would not use a prong collar for a reactive dog, but for a dog you cannot get to stop pulling a prong collar might be the way to go. What I mean is, once you learn to administer a correction with the prong collar for pulling, etc, I would NOT do this when she is reacting.

Reacting is usually a fearful response. It sounds like she is totally unsocialized around children and dogs. This means she is not confident. Children run and scream, both heighten a dogs natural responses to their various drive, etc. It sounds like your dog lacks confidence. She does not know if she should herd, protect herself, or whatever. Just because she SEEMS to be acting aggressively, does not mean she is really not fearful. Flight or fight, if she is leashed to you, there is no chance of flight and she knows it, that leaves fight. Most of the time lunging, growling, barking is enough to scare off a threat, but if she feels she must nip as well, well, that is yet another warning. Warnings are what a dog does to PREVENT an all out fight or bite. Correcting a dog with a prong collar when it begins to react around children or dogs is likely to associate the correction to the child or dog making them even more fearful of children or dogs.

Unfortunately, words cannot lead to any confident diagnosis. What you need is a good behaviorist, who will assess the dog and create a plan for you and your dog. To protect your dog, you must protect your dog from doing something possibly fatal to her. My guess is a plan that makes managing the environment first priority for now while you work on building the bond between she and you through leadership and training, building her confidence by a LOT of positive physical and mental exercises (agility is something that really seems to help), and THEN, carefully reintroducing the whole socialization concept in such a manner as to not cause a reaction. A reaction means the dog is overwhelmed. That is not a state where good things happen. But once the dog sees you as being competent to protect her (a good leader), and has mastered basic obedience to a decent level of reliability, you can start moving closer to those thing that had caused her to spazz.

For example, for the shy dog, you first build the bond where the dog is safe, only people she knows. Then you step out and work with her, SIT, DOWN, HEEL, things she already knows, but now in the presence of other people. Do not stop to talk with them at this point. When that is old hat, then you employ some friends to talk to you, and totally ignore the dog. When that is fine. Then have people drop treats for the dog without looking at her. If she eats them, you can go further, teaching people to offer the treat in the open palm of their hand.

Your dog seems ok with adults already, so you are a little ahead of that game. And with children, I would not suggest making them treat factories. Better to get to the point where she simply ignores children.

A good goal for training and socialization is a Canine Good Citizen Certificate.

First Manage her and her environment so that there is NO bite or accident.

Then work on Leadership and training -- these are two different things. One leadership model is Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF), which is the manner you interact with your dog, your lifestyle. It is not combative, but by using simple, non-confrontational ways of dealing with your dog, you solidify your place as leader/protector. All good things, resources you are in control of, the dog works to get what the dog wants, whether its pets, praise, food, a trip outside. Training is the basics, Sit, Down, Stay, Come, Heel. These are essential. As you master these, your classes and work with your dog will heel with more doodling/turns, stay longer, down while in motion, down from a distance, stay from a distance, and more while you continue to practice the basic essentials.

When these are going well, your dog is a bit more relaxed, and doing well, then it is time to move to working the mind and body specifically to have fun and build confidence. No prong collars, or really corrections in this. Lots of praise and treats. All positive. This part should be fun for you and the dog. Leadership and training builds the dogs confidence in you, now you need to help the dog build confidence in herself. Agility is something that seems to work well. There are probably other things that work as well. As the dog masters different obstacles and is praised for it, confidence, trying new things, will be that much easier to maintain. Using a clicker can be very helpful.

Then when you start going out into the world again with the aim of socialization, clicking and treating is something that the dog understands completely.

Yanking a prong collar when a dog lunges at a child might work this time, but it also might make the dog more fearful. Instead walking by a playground where children are running and playing and your dog is heeling nicely at your side, and you click and praise your dog for NOT reacting. Then you get a little closer, and a little closer, bit by bit.

This is not something that is done in a week. It takes some time. Socialization is best started between weeks 3 and 16, when learning is a little different and good socialization experiences seems to stick with the dog. That is not a possibility with your dog. But LOTS of people manage to socialize rescued dogs long after their dog is fully an adult. It takes more time, but in the end is terribly rewarding.

Plan on going on a journey with your dog. Plan on it taking a year. Set up a goal for each month. Every day do something. Do not overwhelm the dog. Short, 5-10 minute training sessions, on new person, place, or thing in a day. As you build the bond, you will learn your dog's body language, and learn how to redirect before the stress level is anywhere near reacting. You will learn to trust your dog as your dog becomes trustworthy. Your dog learns to trust you, as your signals and leadership becomes clear to him.

A good behaviorist or trainer.
Classes.
Group classes.
Time and patience.

With hard work, and patience, in another 7 years, she will be the best dog on the block.

Good luck with her. It IS doable.

ETA: I would go with a prong for pulling only, I would not use an e-collar. Actually, I am not a fan of the prong either, but to begin, it is about managing her and her environment, to protect her. If the prong collar helps you to dog that, then that makes sense.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by dianefbarfield

I knew I would get help and suggestions here....you are all wonderful.We do control her and we always have her on leash. We use the ecollar on the lowest setting to encourage her only...especially to teach the heel which has been a major problem.
My fear is that there will be a situation that I can't prevent. I have had some good suggestions about trainers tonight and I will follow up. We have been to basic obedience training and we have worked with her ourselves based upon our experiences with other dogs. but for some reason we are not very successful. And the reactive thing is just dangerous.
I don't want to do anything drastic...I have never even considered that with any other dog in my life. I just don't understand how Lizzie can be so sweet and calm and then "go off" without warning.

Reconsider - if she was able to bite a child then you don't (can't?) control her, at least not completely (and this is VERY difficult!). But first you must admit it and then you can begin to control it.

Did anyone teach you how to use the e-collar or did you use it by yourself? You really need a pro to teach you how to use one (at least we did!).

The properly fitted Prong collar will give you much more control. I would also recommend very highly a solid leather leash with a "trafficc loop in it - a 12" handle placed on the leash right near the clip you clip to the dogs collar).

BTW, if you use a prong be absolutely sure that you have a "Safety clip from it to a solid flat collar as prongs are subject to comming loose once in a while!).

BTW2, I would guess that a good pro trainer used to dealing successfully with reactive dogs (no matter the cause) WILL be able to teach you to control your dog. They did with me! but it took me three trainers/behaviorists to find an effective one with the right approach to get my dog under control.

Go for it!

[katieliz]

only want to share my situation, you've already had some great advice. i have a dog whose environment i have always had to manage and will always have to manage. he is a wonderful boy with me and with my dh and he loves and is bonded with our alpha bitch (one year older, have had both since eight weeks). he has proven he cannot be trusted with other people or other dogs, but has never exhibited even the slightest bit of aggression with me or dh, he adores both of us. when company or household help comes he is put away. we live by gate, crate, and rotate (our alpha bitch also does not tolerate our rescue bitch). i entirely protect him from any possible trouble he might get himself into. he is my responsibility and i will do this until the day he dies. he is eight years old so i have a few more years to go. i love him beyond words but i won't deny it's a huge responsibility. if you live a lifestyle that makes it possible for you to totally manage your lizzie's environment, i mean totally, it can be done...but you must give up all expectations that she can be exposed to children or other dogs and accept the fact that she is what she is. it goes without saying that the opinion of the very best behaviorist you can find is absolutely necessary before any kind of final decision can be made. if you ever need to talk with someone who's "been there, done that", pm me and i'll send my phone number. i'd be happy to give you any moral support i could. take care.