PD reject. A Slew of issues to correct!

[ashleec73]

I just took on a new mid-day dog walking client. He is an intact 18 month old Black GSD male. He has had no real formal training other than what he briefly received with the PD that was evaluating him for bite work.
He didn't make the cut. So they let my client adopt him. Unfortunately, he and his girlfriend are NOT at all calm-assertive. They are calm-passive. Duke is allowed to jump up on, mouth, bump, pull and generally act rudely to humans. He is destructive when left home alone, digs holes to China in the yard, barks like a nut job at passersby when he is outside and lacks any true structure. From minute one, I have made it clear that these behaviors do not fly with me. I have even rolled him during our structured walks.
He is absolutely the sweetest, most handsome, dreamy dog I have ever met. But he stinks on his walks. He pulls, pulls, pulls. The Halti is a joke with him. I spend the entire walk with the leash pulled in firmly. He does let up a bit now and then. I try to give him some slack but sheesh, he is so strong! And forget if he sees a darned utility pole. He tries to yank me to it.
I am well aware of all what is going on during the walks, we aren't taking leisurely strolls here. Its work!
I am getting him on an Easy Walk harness this week and a Ruff Wear backpack is on order. I am adamantly AGAINST any choke chains or pinch collars. The chokes can damage the trachea and the pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks. They just build up a tolerance any way.
So, I'm looking for advice and guidance to help this dog stay out of the shelter and get the training he needs to join the mid-day dog pack for our excursions!
I think once he is altered and gets the basics down, he can learn further behaviors from the pack. They really do learn from and teach each other.

Thanks!

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by ashleec73

I have even rolled him during our structured walks.

phew, this should be fun.....

I can see why he didn't make the cut at the PD. No dog with what it takes to be a working K9 is going to let a dog walker alpha roll him in the street.

Originally Posted by ashleec73

pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks.

LOL

[chelle]

Originally Posted by ashleec73

...and the pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks. They just build up a tolerance any way.

Useless to you perhaps, but a lifesaver here.

As far as developing a "tolerance," sure, the dog will learn to ignore the pressure if allowed to continually pull while on prong, but that isn't how the prong is to be used. The point of the prong is to deliver the correction, not to let them pull against it.

I also worry about trachea damage, which is exactly why I learned to use the prong. If the prong is fitted properly, it isn't on the trachea.

[Lucy Dog]

First, stop with the alpha rolling. All you're accomplishing with that is you're confusing the dog. It's a stupid and outdated training method.

Second, you're completely wrong about prongs. They are very useful tools if used correctly and they can work great with GSD's.

Now on this specific dog... It sounds like a dog in serious need of training and an outlet other than a walk (or heavy duty walks). He's digging and pulling and causing mayhem because he probably has a lot of steam to blow off. He's like a shaken up carbonated drink ready to burst.

Get this dog in some training classes... Maybe something like agility once he learns his manners. He needs to be worked physically and mentally.

Also what kind of off leash time is this dig getting and how much everyday?

[AbbyK9]

and lacks any true structure

While it may be sure that this dog lacks structure, what he primarily lacks are physical and mental exercise. He's not getting the stimulation that he needs. That's why he's digging to China in the yard. And he's not getting the physical exercise he needs, that's why he's pulling you down the road like there's no tomorrow.

I don't think that these are issues you're going to be able to address as a once-a-day dog walker. This dog needs owners who are serious about meeting his needs - getting him off-leash exercise daily as well as training. They need to get into a class to learn how to work with this dog so they can do that sort of training on a daily basis. A good class will also teach them about the importance of structure at home.

I have even rolled him during our structured walks.

The Alpha Roll is an outdated technique and a really easy way to see yourself getting bitten in the face. I bet your clients are also not paying you to alpha roll their dog or try out various training methods on him - they just want you to walk him, right? Same with the pack ... make sure that your dog owners are on board with this. You should not just buy a pack and throw it on the dog with weight in it for walks - this needs to be approved by the owners. They may also want to seek their veterinarian's approval to ensure the dog is physically sound to carry weight. That is way, way overstepping your bounds as a dog walker.

the pinch collars are useless in a GSD as they have such thick fur and strong necks. They just build up a tolerance any way.

It sounds like you don't really know how to fit and use a prong collar correctly. They should be sitting high up on the neck, behind the dog's ears. There is no reason at all why a properly fitted prong collar doesn't work on a German Shepherd - the fur does not inhibit it from working and the "strength" of the neck is irrelevant when the collar is fitted where it belongs.

I also think that using a head halter on a dog like this is extremely dangerous, especially if he lunges or tries to forge ahead to utility poles like you have described. The chances of this injuring his neck are much greater than the chances of him getting injured by a prong collar or a properly fitted and used choke.

[chelle]

Originally Posted by Lucy Dog

....Get this dog in some training classes... Maybe something like agility once he learns his manners. He needs to be worked physically and mentally.

Also what kind of off leash time is this dig getting and how much everyday?

My take is this is her customer's dog and she's the walker.

Personally, if the owners won't get this dog into classes AND work the obvious physical outlet needs, I'd refuse this customer. The dog won't magically change without working off that energy better, without the training it apparently needs, (going by your description of behavior) and by getting an EasyWalk and a backpack. Certainly not by rolling him. You may end up bit and you may unknowingly be causing psychological harm that'll require even *more* training to correct. I mean, you're "rolling" the dog for pulling? Really? (correct me if I'm wrong, please)

Your EasyWalk is not going to fix what appears to be a multi-leveled problem. This needs to go back to the owners and they have work to do. You're not a trainer, you're a walker and you can't just "fix" this with an EasyWalk and backpack. Altering him will not magically fix the pulling issues, either. The "basics," as you say, must be taught and they're not being addressed at all. (just going by your post.)

And who knows what adding him to a pack of dogs may get. Is he DA? You could end up with a major MESS!

[bocron]

Watch much Cesar?

Were you hired as a trainer or a dog walker? This dog needs a trainer, one who is experienced with GSDs and working lines would be a bonus. If you are not a trainer experienced with these issues, then the owner's need to be doing the work in conjunction with the trainer. Absolutely you need to adjust your services to work with whatever plan the trainer comes up with, but there needs to be a plan.
A tired dog is NOT a good dog, it's just a tired dog who is still looking for a mental outlet. Hopefully one in which the owner's participate and enjoy doing.
Alpha rolling a male GSD is a good way to get face bit, so I'd rethink that first and foremost. Especially if the owner's haven't hired you as a trainer, you are definitely walking a tightrope.

[ashleec73]

OK, so looks like I have a bit to learn on prong collars. I will give it a try at some point. In the past, when using them, I have had dogs that just pulled after a few months. But, perhaps I need to revisit this technique.

I alpha roll dogs quite a bit and I am wondering how this technique confuses a dog. I personally find it a great tool for getting dogs to respond to touch. Dogs that I have rolled in the past now simply respond to a touch on the shoulder or hips. I use it as the last result and usually once is all it takes. I'm not a dog trainer by trade, but for the past 12 years I have had a lot of success in making dogs great pack members by treating them with respect, love and giving them respectful discipline as needed. I hate these trainers that feel the need to impose some mach BS onto the dogs. I realize that the GSD is a working breed and that they need to feel like they have a job and a purpose. I, personally, own a Lab and an Akita/Aussie mix. I have worked with breeds from Pitts, Danes, Chows, GSDs, Pointers, Am. Bulldogs to the annoying little ankle biters like Chihuahuas, Poms and Bichons. I have a wonderful pack of dogs with a great track record of helping new pack members learn the rules and how to feel confident and purposeful. My hopes for Duke is to get him more tolerable on leash, learn his basic manners and join our pack and take part in our treks thru the woods, beach trips and field trips.
I think I will get in touch with an obedience trainer to back me up on the need for this dog to get his needs addressed ASAP.
He is not a complete lost cause. He's only 18 months old. I've actually worked with worse dogs. Really. Oh, I forgot to mention....he is about 20-25 lbs overweight. So.....yeah.....this dog needs an outlet, structure and canine companionship.
He was adopted by owners who mean well but are completely clueless on the needs of a dog, let alone a GSD.
I just worry that I am his only hope for help. That this dog will never see a trainer, will eventually bite someone seriously and get PTS.
So I am looking for advice on leash reactivity, basic manners and some GSD-specific activities I can do to help this dog.

Thanks!

[ashleec73]

Watch much Cesar?
Um, kind of a condescending question, don't you think? No, I do not watch him on a regular basis, but he has some valid training tips and his approach is better than most so-called trainers with their machisimo over-powering "training". I try to offer the dogs respect and love while I am working with them. I am not some macho alpha bitch trying to overpower a "lowly" animal.

Were you hired as a trainer or a dog walker? Both.

Absolutely you need to adjust your services to work with whatever plan the trainer comes up with, but there needs to be a plan.
I have done this MANY times in the past. Sometimes the trainer offers some LOVELY choke chain tips. I won't even use these in my services.

A tired dog is NOT a good dog, it's just a tired dog who is still looking for a mental outlet. I have to disagree on this one. My entire purpose is to wear out my clients dogs while they are at work. Granted, I am sure my constant interaction with them helps with their training, or lack thereof. Many times, if it weren't for me, these dogs wouldn't even know recall or leave it or stay....seriously.
Alpha rolling a male GSD is a good way to get face bit.
Never happened. I know how to properly roll a dog. I have actually trained people on how to NOT get bitten when breaking up dog fights at the park. I'm not some housewife hack who likes to walk the doggies. I started as a vet assistant, then a dog walker and once owned the first true doggy daycare in Rhode Island. Actually, my guidelines and policies are now used by the state DEM for future doggy daycares. I know pack dynamics, pack structure and how to deal with unstable dogs in a pack.

So I am getting a lot of negative comments on what I did wrong but not ONE solid piece of advice on what to do with a leash-reactive dog.

Anyone? Seems like a simple enough issue that trainers should be well-versed in. This is why I am on this forum for advice. Whats your experience with leash-reactive GSDs? What techniques have you used with dogs like this? What works, what doesn't?

but seriously....read the replies you have all given me.....
I want to help this dog stay out of a shelter. or worse, a vicious dog hearing. These owners are not the type to jump over hurdles for their dog. I am his only hope. I have a huge weakness for the GSD. I think if this were any other breed, I'd feel less inclined to try so hard.

[ashleec73]

I think I left out a major detail on the alpha roll I used ONCE on him...we were walking on leash, working on him sitting each time I stop. He saw a boxer across the street and I started to get him walking again and he went bezerk. I did not pull on the Halti ( I am well aware of the possibility of injury with these things-hence the reason I want to get him on the Easy Walk). This was only my 2nd time walking him. I wasn't truly sure what his intentions were or if he had the propensity to attack. I tried to get him to heel and even held his collar on the side to pull him towards me, not pulling the back of the collar further encouraging an aggressive state to escalate. THIS IS WHY I ROLLED HIM. It was a last resort and for the safety of the boxer, its owner and me.
Again, I was a vet assistant. I know how to avoid the teeth. Part of my job was to avoid being bitten and protect the vet from being bitten.