Fighting!!!

[amazing]

I have a 20 month GSD Bitch and a 5 year old springador ALSO A BITCH, a cross with Labrador and springer spaniel.

This week they have starred to fight, with my GSD coming out on top, it's getting quite scary when they confront each other then have a fight.

It's like my GSD has come of age and is now taking control of the pecking order.

I had to split them up today and put them in separate rooms after having two fights in front of the family which scared us all.

Any advice or tips on how to deal with this behaviour would much be appreciated?

[wyominggrandma]

keeping two bitches together is usually the hardest thing to work out. Two girls will fight and fight, almost a "death" fight, they get to a point of wanting to kill each other. Never know what will set it off.
You will probably have to keep them separate and don't allow any signs of favoring one over the other. Feed seperate, play separate, sleep separate.

[MaggieRoseLee]

How are the dog classes going?

What does your instructor recommend?

How is general obedience around the house? Both dog normally listen to you?

It's like my GSD has come of age and is now taking control of the pecking order.

The problem isn't just that they are fighting out a pecking order. Core issue is the humans either aren't a part of this pecking order at all or at least obviously aren't at the top of the pecking order (as necessary leaders) cause the humans are being ignored in this situation. So management (crates? closed doors?), WAY upping all the off leash exercising WITH the dogs, (they are both spayed, right?).

And continuing with the organized training and classes with all the 'homework' that involves.

Active socializing outside the home too may help. So all the car rides and visiting downtown and with friends may be something you up for awhile too. Mental AND physical exercise are a huge help. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ocialized.html

You find anything like herding, flyball, dock dogs, agility.... all may help with general obedience classes.

There's also a great book, The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell that's a great read and was a huge help to me:

Amazon.com: The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation (9780060089467): Jan Fennell: Books

Amazon.com: The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation (9780060089467): Jan Fennell: Books

Basically, you need to change life completely around your house for the next year or so or you may end up with a dead/seriously injured pair of dogs. And even if you try to rehome the GSD rather than dealing with this solveable problem, it's almost impossible to rehome a dog that's killed/severly injured another dog. So having the vet put down a perfectly healthy pet is sadness to the extreme.

The older dog never asked for this GSD to be added to it's home to terrorize it. It shouldn't be up to it to try to fight it's way thru daily life in your home, or be in constant fear of being in a fight. This is YOUR GSD, so it's YOUR responsibility to take it in hand with the proper training, socialization and EXERCISE.

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee

The problem isn't just that they are fighting out a pecking order. Core issue is the humans either aren't a part of this pecking order at all or at least obviously aren't at the top of the pecking order (as necessary leaders) cause the humans are being ignored in this situation. So management (crates? closed doors?), WAY upping all the off leash exercising WITH the dogs, (they are both spayed, right?).

I don't agree with this at all. Same sex aggression is not an uncommon problem in the breed. Dogs who have it are genetically wired towards not tolerating sharing resources with other same sex dogs. It has very little to do with the humans being "the leader" and "pack order". My SSA GSD was extremely well trained, extremely devoted and never had any issues with "dominance" or "pack order" towards me. I took her to work with me every day for years at doggy daycare and she never had issues with the dogs there. I never had leash aggression issues with her at shows or out and about. But she would fight with any mature bitch living here and fight in a very serious way. It was extremely obvious that it was a hard wired behavior for her.

To the OP, this sort of issue generally ends up requiring the dogs be managed in a "crate and rotate" scenario: Pit Bull Rescue Central

This is a good post by dog trainer Shirley Chong, who despite being an accomplished trainer, had SSA issues with her female GSD: http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bitch.txt

[Rerun]

Also have to agree with agileGSD. A common misconception amongst those who have females who don't fight is that it's because they are a "better" pack leader or have better training skills, etc. It's well known amongst the experienced GSD handlers that same sex aggression, especially with females, is an issue with this breed. Regardless of spaying, classes, obedience.

Chances are these two dogs will have to be seperated for life, or have one muzzled if one is the attacker (basket style muzzle, not the cheap grooming mesh muzzles).

To add to agileGSD's story, my SSA female came home at 7 1/2 wks old and for the first year of her life was a leader dog in training. She literally went EVERYWHERE with me, including work and at the time I was in college. She's almost 8 yrs old now and has been SSA since she was about 14 - 16 months old. It got worse over the next year or two and finally she has had to remain seperated from female dogs since then. She's been spayed since she was 1, had absolutely excellent training and superior socialization, and once sexual maturity hit, it was all gone when it came to females. She is fine and you wouldn't know she was SSA unless she's alone with another female dog or off leash with one. On leash she will be tense, but most other than I and my SO can't tell. They think she's friendly. She has training, manners, knows how to behave on leash and in public. But all bets are off otherwise if she's with a female, including dogs she has grown up with since puppyhood.

[trudy]

WOW I am glad I don't have which ever line Agile GSD and Rerun have as I insist that I can bring in any dog into my home I want when I want and for as long as I want regardless of sex or neutering. They may not like it but they will tolerate it and not fight. I watch very closely, having more issues with visitors than my own but they all learn quickly I am the boss and they suck it up and deal. Right now I have 3 intact males here, only 1 lives here and he is the only one hasn't been used at stud and is the youngest at 3. To add to the stress, Gemma left Fri in heat and that is the day i picked up the other 2 males. Have we had a fight?? NO!! Have I been ultra vigilant?? YES!~! and crate or kennel if I am not prepared to watch. In the last 10 hours only 1 was kenneled for 1/2 hour when I ran to the store and then one was inside and one outside, but other than that all have been loose. They eat together and exercise and toilet together.

Now it si true these are males, but I have done the same with females, I look mafter friends dogs if needed and also family dogs and emergency situations. I have 2 kennels and numerous crates but feel loose and watched is best. I have NEVER lost total control, yes I've had a few incidents but have always gotten control quickly and decisively. I do deal with healthy, well trained and socialized dogs, well at least mine are that way and others I incorporate in by use of leads and commands

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by trudy

WOW I am glad I don't have which ever line Agile GSD and Rerun have

I've seen the behavioral in every line of GSD - German working, German show, American show, pet lines and mixes of those. Most GSD breeders I know strongly suggest not attempting to keep two females unless you are open to the crate and rotate way of life. The potential for same sex aggression in the breed is the reason I have a PyrShep puppy instead of a GSD puppy. Of course not all GSDs are same sex aggressive. Obviously not all GSDs are same sex aggressive but it's far more common in them than it is in many breeds. In fact, one study done of dog-dog aggression found GSDs to be one of the most likely breeds to fight with household dogs.

Originally Posted by trudy

as I insist that I can bring in any dog into my home I want when I want and for as long as I want regardless of sex or neutering. They may not like it but they will tolerate it and not fight. I watch very closely, having more issues with visitors than my own but they all learn quickly I am the boss and they suck it up and deal.

Until you get a GSD who is SSA. In such a situation, your idea that they must "suck it up and deal with it" because you're "the boss" could likely end with one of your dogs killing the other.

[katieliz]

whoa trudy, you've really been lucky so far!!! in a lifetime of shepherds i'd never dealt with it either. a lifetime. then boom, jeni came into our family and suddenly i had two alpha bitches, ms. seraphina-the-tank and jeni-from-the-hood. gettin' in the middle of that put me in the hospital (long story, my fault not theirs). never underestimate the inherent danger in bitch fights. i now live by gate, crate, and rotate...hard but doable (tho it requires constant vigilance), when you love all your dogs and it's the only solution available.

[suzzyq01]

Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee

How are the dog classes going?

What does your instructor recommend?

How is general obedience around the house? Both dog normally listen to you?


The problem isn't just that they are fighting out a pecking order. Core issue is the humans either aren't a part of this pecking order at all or at least obviously aren't at the top of the pecking order (as necessary leaders) cause the humans are being ignored in this situation. So management (crates? closed doors?), WAY upping all the off leash exercising WITH the dogs, (they are both spayed, right?).

And continuing with the organized training and classes with all the 'homework' that involves.

Active socializing outside the home too may help. So all the car rides and visiting downtown and with friends may be something you up for awhile too. Mental AND physical exercise are a huge help. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ocialized.html

You find anything like herding, flyball, dock dogs, agility.... all may help with general obedience classes.

There's also a great book, The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell that's a great read and was a huge help to me:

Amazon.com: The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation (9780060089467): Jan Fennell: Books


Basically, you need to change life completely around your house for the next year or so or you may end up with a dead/seriously injured pair of dogs. And even if you try to rehome the GSD rather than dealing with this solveable problem, it's almost impossible to rehome a dog that's killed/severly injured another dog. So having the vet put down a perfectly healthy pet is sadness to the extreme.

The older dog never asked for this GSD to be added to it's home to terrorize it. It shouldn't be up to it to try to fight it's way thru daily life in your home, or be in constant fear of being in a fight. This is YOUR GSD, so it's YOUR responsibility to take it in hand with the proper training, socialization and EXERCISE.

Completely agree with this.

You MUST be the alpha in the home. Bitches are sometimes more difficult to deal with because they are like human women. They go through things just like we do.

You need to take control of them both. One at a time if needed then together. You are not in control therefor they are fighting for control over one another.

I would consult a professional to assist you in this matter but at any rate it is possible to have them co-exist but YOU have to become the leader.

Also agree with actives...they may be taking out their need to exercise as frustration on each other.

[Germanshepherdlova]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Until you get a GSD who is SSA. In such a situation, your idea that they must "suck it up and deal with it" because you're "the boss" could likely end with one of your dogs killing the other.