Dogs are not pack animals???

[DogGone]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Most research points towards alpha theory being extremely outdated.

At one time allegedly most research indicated that Caucasians were the superior race. My point is often prejudice drives and influences research. It’s much like with the Kinsey studies that raped children in the name of science to advance a political agenda. All of the alleged research that bashes alpha theory and alpha rolling seems to be people motivated by greed that are trying to sell something like training and or people there are motivated by a political agenda/power.
　
Most of the research and all of the facts I have seen indicate that Alpha theory is on the mark. As far as packs not being fluid. I don’t know where you got that from. All the literature I have seen and all the facts I have seen over the past four decades indicate that packs are dynamic. You must have been reading garbage that I don’t bother with. Life in itself is dynamic by nature. Life is change. In wolf packs there is a hierarchy that changes. However there often is a pattern. Wolves often have duties and shifts and jobs. It’s very interesting to study their hunting behavior. Often when they are hunting large game; groups or individuals will go out and test and wear down and analyze the herds of caribou. They are often quite picky about which one they take. They like an easy kill but they also want a good meal. Once they pick their mark they wear down the individual(s) that they want. Often some wolves will wait in ambush as other wolves chase down the herd of caribou and drive them right into the ambush. (I see dogs at the dog park mimic the same behavior.)
　
They even found a skull of a Dire Wolf that obtained an injury that would’ve blinded the Wolf, however the bone managed to fuse back together. That suggests that even though the Wolf was blinded the pack continued to provide food to the disabled Wolf for quite some time.

Originally Posted by codmaster

Note the author! very much a Pos only type of person - it is definetly in her best interest for her view of "training" to NOT believe in the idea of a pack and a pack leader. this might have influenced her view of packs.

(I accidentally posted this and other stuff in another thread that was a related topic)
I think that unethical trainers are trying to create the myth that being an alpha leader is somehow inherently cruel and ineffective; just so they can drum up more business.
　

It reminds me of a trip that I took to Canada. We checked in a hotel and my father stopped to get a drink at the hotel bar, a drunken Indian was trying to tell my dad that people could not go out in the wilderness without a guide because wolves are inherently aggressive and dangerous and you would inevitably be eaten alive. The drunken Indian was trying to tell us that wolves frequently for no reason attack humans. The drunken Indian was a liar and an idiot that was just trying to scam us into taking him on as a guide. My family have been in the deep wilderness without a guide dozens of times and we have even tracked wolves in bear country; so we know what the reality is. Only once did we hire and Indian guide for a day. Once we hired an honest knowledgeable Indian; and he showed us his cabin and all his hunting gear and how he processed and preserved/stored the spoils of his hunting, fishing and foraging.

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Does any one consider cats to be pack animals?

Not normally. However I have noticed sometimes house kittens raised with dogs will learn some of the pack behavior. I had a kitten that would follow me and the dog around the park. I have a neighbor that also has a kitten that will follow him and his dog around the park.

[Samba]

I have always had cats that would go on walks. I had one as a child that met the bus every day. More faithful than the dog!

When the kids were little, our current cat would run to get me if the baby started crying. She stands on her hind legs when she greets that kid even now.

The youngest kiddo is 21, so she is one old kitty now. Higher pack drive than some dogs, I guess.

Lots of the information I have been seeing lately points to how unlike wolves dogs are.

[AbbyK9]

My cats must be the exception.

I have two males who are 6 months apart in age and not related. They were introduced to each other when one was a year and a half, and the other a year old. They ADORE each other. They "hunt" together, they curl up together, they groom each other.

Of course, they also come when called and sit for treats... XD

[AgileGSD]

[QUOTE=DogGone;1893691]
Most of the research and all of the facts I have seen indicate that Alpha theory is on the mark. [/QUOTE]

Prove it


"In actuality, when they mature, wolves leave their original pack to mate and produce offspring which then become the rest of their new pack. Dominance arises simply in the same way that parents naturally control the behavior of their offspring in humans, at least while they are living with the family. As in human families, the parents loosely set the rules, and the kids sort things out among themselves. Because of this state of affairs, rather than using the label "alpha" Mech prefers to refer to the "breeding" male or female in the pack or simply the mother or father wolf. The idea of the alpha only seems to be valid in artificial packs, where unrelated individuals are put together, as in captivity, or where may be multiple breeding pairs. In such "unnatural" social groupings, animals will contest for leadership and an alpha wolf will emerge.


Of course wolves are not dogs, so let's look at a recent (2010) piece of research by Roberto Bonanni of the University of Parma and his associates. They looked at free-ranging packs of dogs in Italy and found that leadership was a very fluid thing. For example, in one pack, which had 27 members, there were 6 dogs that habitually took turns leading the pack, but at least half of the adult dogs were leaders, at least some of the time. The dogs that were usually found leading the pack tended to be the older, more experienced dogs, but not necessarily the most dominant. The pack seems to allow leadership to dogs, who at particular times seem to be most likely to contribute to the welfare of the pack through knowledge that can access the resources they require." http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-


"Contrary to popular belief, aggressive dogs are NOT trying to assert their dominance over their canine or human “pack”, according to research published by academics at the University of Bristol’s Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research.
The researchers spent six months studying dogs freely interacting at a Dogs Trust rehoming centre, and reanalysing data from studies of feral dogs, before concluding that individual relationships between dogs are learnt through experience rather than motivated by a desire to assert “dominance”.
The study shows that dogs are not motivated by maintaining their place in the pecking order of their pack, as many well-known dog trainers preach." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

"Dogs have lived with humans for 15,000 years, and they evolved as scavengers, not hunters. So it is not legitimate to compare dogs with wolves and wolf packs, which do hunt, according to the statement. The evolutionary pressure on dogs was that the least shy animals were the most successful in ransacking human refuse. Today's free-roaming dogs live in small, less cohesive groups rather than packs and are often alone.

Moreover, the notion that every pack has an aggressive alpha male that rules over all the others originated from observations of captive wolves. But, research on wild wolves suggests that wolf packs are not rigidly controlled by a single domineering male, according to L. David Mech, a senior scientist with the U.S. Geological Survey who has studied wild wolves in Michigan and Northern Minnesota for more than 40 years.

Mech says a pack usually has an alpha pair and that most of the rest of the pack is that pair’s offspring. That means the lead male never fought for dominance but merely reproduced. The lead male does not always lead during hunts or in anything else for that matter.

In fact, Mech says he generally objects to the term “alpha” male — a term he once used — because what it implies is not accurate." http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=12230

[AgileGSD]

"The term “dominance” is widely used in the academic and popular literature on the behavior of domestic dogs, especially in the context of aggression. Although dominance is correctly a property of relationships, it has been erroneously used to describe a supposed trait of individual dogs, even though there is little evidence that such a trait exists. When used correctly to describe a relationship between 2 individuals, it tends to be misapplied as a motivation for social interactions, rather than simply a quality of that relationship. Hence, it is commonly suggested that a desire ‘to be dominant’ actually drives behavior, especially aggression, in the domestic dog. By contrast, many recent studies of wolf packs have questioned whether there is any direct correspondence between dominance within a relationship and agonistic behavior, and in contrast to wolves, hierarchical social structures have little relationship with reproductive behavior in feral dog packs. Nor do the exchanges of aggressive and submissive behavior in feral dogs, originally published by S. K. Pal and coworkers, fit the pattern predicted from wolf behavior, especially the submissive behavior observed between members of different packs. In the present study of a freely interacting group of neutered male domestic dogs, pairwise relationships were evident, but no overall hierarchy could be detected. Since there seems to be little empirical basis for wolf-type dominance hierarchies in dogs, the authors have examined alternative constructs. Parker's Resource Holding Potential (RHP) appears to be less useful when applied to domestic dogs than to other species, although it has the advantage of incorporating the concept of subjective resource value (V) as a factor influencing whether or not conflicts are escalated. The authors propose that associative learning, combined with V, can provide more parsimonious explanations for agonistic behavior in dogs than can the traditional concept of dominance."
Elsevier

[Samba]

Yes, the theories and research they are a changing regarding dominance. They are also changing regarding the once accepted likeness of dogs to wolves in behavior and social arrangements.

Dogs are into us, but it may not be because we are pack leader so to speak.

[Catu]

(Warning, coment coming from someone who doesn't own cats)

Cats may not be pack animals by themselves, but thy are a domestic animals with all the changes it involves, starting with neurological and endocrinology changes from the African cat they come from. That means that just like dogs, cats have a degree of neoteny (keeping juvenile characteristics in adulthood) and that makes them more tolerant of other cats than any wild counterpart. On the other hand, the range of territory is widely determined by the amount of food available, if there is food in abundance, there is no need to guard so jealously a vast territory and coexistence is possible. Since they are eternal juveniles and food is less of a problem for feral domestic cats, with all our trash and rats, they can form alliances just like juvenile lions, leopards and cheetahs do.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Does any one consider cats to be pack animals? If so, how should cat owners show that they are the "pack leader" or "alpha"?

Nah, Dogs have owners, cats have staff.

[Good_Karma]

AgileGSD, I think I'm in love with you! Actual references to follow up on rather than bold, unsubstantiated statements.


Marry me?

[Samba]

I often see wolves referenced when there is talk of all the pack and dominance in dogs. Traditional concepts of wolf pack dynamic have their challengers now.

NPWRC :: Alpha Status, Dominance, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs