Dogs are not pack animals???

[DogGone]

IMAO The article was such trash that I stopped reading it. Then I wondered if maybe I was jumping to conclusions so I read more. The article is contradictory rubbish.

Originally Posted by Good_Karma

You will never be a “pack leader” without fail unless it’s under a controlled experiment like inside houses with doors, yards with fences, and collars with leashes.

In the past four decades I’ve had 6 German Shepherds; I was pack leader to all of them. Sure most of the time the dog spent in houses, yards or on a leash; however almost every day I took them on walks in the woods without a leash. I’ve taken several vacations where I spent weeks at a time in the wilderness without having a leash; yet my dogs are so well bonded to me that it was rarely left my sight and when they did it was just for a few minutes. I’ve been a pack leader for over four decades and I’ve been pack leader the entire time. I feel it is irresponsible not to be a pack leader when you have a dog like a German Shepherd. I feel if you’re not a good pack leader your dog is more likely to lose control, be aggressive and be a danger. A stable leader usually results in a stable pack.

[AgileGSD]

Most research points towards alpha theory being extremely outdated. Even wolf packs function far differently than what was once believed and it is now known that feral dogs form much, much looser "packs" than wolves. Things are much more fluid in wolf packs than what was once assumed and even more fluid in dog to dog interactions.

A great example of this with my dogs is that in the house, I jokingly refer to Loki as the Queen Dog. The other dogs are intimidated by her and take extra care not to invade her space or seem like they are interested in stuff that she has. All of the dogs offer appeasement behaviors towards her and she can be very loud and intimidating if they do something she doesn't like. Old school of thought would say this is a "dominant, alpha type" female. Yet outdoors, she's just another dog and the others act fairly indifferent towards her (and she to them). That is very typical of dog social interaction, it's fluid and depends on the situation and not that there is one "alpha" who always rules all dogs in a group.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Samba

Some wild dogs who don't appear to pack up...

Are Dogs Pack Animals?

Note the author! very much a Pos only type of person - it is definetly in her best interest for her view of "training" to NOT believe in the idea of a pack and a pack leader. this might have influenced her view of packs.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Jax08

This is interesting. Sounds like when they have fully reverted to being feral they do form a pack similar to a wolf pack.

Feral dog management and control

I can not see most dogs living on their own in the wild. Dogs will form a pack because they are much more successful hunters that way.

[Stogey]

I have often seen feral dogs pack up, either it be for hunting, protection from other predatory animals or just being social. I consider a pack 3 or more animals.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Most research points towards alpha theory being extremely outdated. Even wolf packs function far differently than what was once believed and it is now known that feral dogs form much, much looser "packs" than wolves. Things are much more fluid in wolf packs than what was once assumed and even more fluid in dog to dog interactions.

A great example of this with my dogs is that in the house, I jokingly refer to Loki as the Queen Dog. The other dogs are intimidated by her and take extra care not to invade her space or seem like they are interested in stuff that she has. All of the dogs offer appeasement behaviors towards her and she can be very loud and intimidating if they do something she doesn't like. Old school of thought would say this is a "dominant, alpha type" female. Yet outdoors, she's just another dog and the others act fairly indifferent towards her (and she to them). That is very typical of dog social interaction, it's fluid and depends on the situation and not that there is one "alpha" who always rules all dogs in a group.

This could be my pack.

Outside, Zenzy is actually teaming up with Indra and the walk side on side while in the house she can't stand her company and is literally the "alpha dominant bitch".
In the house she only lets Yukon get close to her, while outside all three of them get along. However I am their main source and you can barely take them away from me.
Yesterday I wanted to wait in the car while my husband wanted to take the dogs upstairs. It was impossible for him to call them. They wouldn't follow him and I had to get out and take them inside.

He was like "They can't survive five minutes without you."

It's true, they would be okay if each of them was a single dog, but Yukon is doing much much better with having another dog around him.

They need their own space, they need a place where they can withdrew themselves from the pack just like us humans. Sometimes we want to be alone but honestly, to say that they are not pack animals is flat out rubbish and wrong.

Dogs are always stronger in a pack. Thats a no-brainer.

[arycrest]

There used to be a large pack of wild/feral dogs in the Bowie, MD area - it took a long time to eradicate it. I recall one time I was at a local park eating my lunch when some of the pack members approached me - it really scared me since they weren't too affraid of humans. I tossed them my sandwich and ran like heck to my car.

[Catu]

I find this kind of articles plain harmful. after decades of believing in the whole "alpha-dominance" theory, the slowly change to a new mindset is hard, sometimes it is hard even for me. I am still doing my own research based on several articles and I'm on the way to form my own opinion on the subject of the whole social dog behavior, not yet there... But when someone who has not investigated as much, has read only a couple of things on the web and finds something like what this lady wrote, the first gut feeling is "Bulls***" and that person will keep stuck longer with the memes of the dominance theories.

[Lauri & The Gang]

Most dogs left to go feral will eventually team up with other dogs. For breeding, for more successful hunting, for protection from other predators and some will do it just for the social aspect. A few will remain loners.

Humans can NEVER be true 'pack leaders' - not like a dog or wolf can.

Dogs can communicate SO much - with the flick of a tail or a tilt of their head, with their fur/hair, with their eyes - that humans will NEVER be able to imitate.

Humans can bond with their dogs and be in charge of their dogs. That's the best we can hope for.

[Good_Karma]

Originally Posted by Catu

I find this kind of articles plain harmful. after decades of believing in the whole "alpha-dominance" theory, the slowly change to a new mindset is hard, sometimes it is hard even for me. I am still doing my own research based on several articles and I'm on the way to form my own opinion on the subject of the whole social dog behavior, not yet there... But when someone who has not investigated as much, has read only a couple of things on the web and finds something like what this lady wrote, the first gut feeling is "Bulls***" and that person will keep stuck longer with the memes of the dominance theories.

I posted this article to encourage debate, and so that we may all continue to question what we are being told by "authorities" on the subject. I neither endorse, nor reject Darcie's theory. I say theory, because in fact all currently held beliefs on dog behavior are nothing more than theories. I do not think it is possible to know for certain either way because none of us are dogs and have not lived as a dog lives.

The beauty of questioning your own theories is that under scrutiny, you will either find that they do not hold up, OR you may find yourself further convinced of your being correct. Either way is a positive outcome.

It brings me joy to see how passionately you all feel on the subject of dog behavior. Regardless of how any of you feel, I want to thank you for participating in this discussion, and I hope that we can all leave this conversation as more enlightened individuals.