Alpharoll by mistake?

[selzer]

What is his demeaner when you do this. Is he happy and playful. Or is he seriously submissive when you do it? Is he growling and play fighting or wrestling with you.

i really do not think a dog you have had from a puppy and have done this with all along will suddenly take a chunk out of your face without any warning or external circumstances. i think you're ok with doing it if your dog is happy and playful.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Jelpy

I just read something that makes me wonder if I've been Alpha rolling Lycan inadvertantly. Basically, I play with him by getting on his back and making raspberry's on his chest. He waves his paws and makes "woo-woo" noises and seems perfectly happy, but I was reading leerburg's site and it appears I've been engaging in a very dangerous alpha roll. It's hard to think of it as being dangerous, however, since he seems to love it. Should I cease and desist, or can I keep doing it since Lycan and I both enjoy the farting noise game.

Jelpy

Our dogs must be good at learning all the crazy things that people do to them and seem to tolerate us very well. I wouldn't do a lot of the things that I do to Baron (2 1/2 yo male GSD) to a strange dog but I have no worries whatsoever about him.

A lot of trainers/behaviorists for example say that you should NEVER hug your dog - it is a very dominance thing. I hug him all the time and he seems to even like it often smiling and licking during the hug and never giving even the least effort to get away from the hug!

[Jelpy]

Well, he wuffs, he licks my face and he does the scratchy motion with his back leg. I got him about four or five months ago from the local pound after I dropped by and he ran over and threw himself at me for a pat on the head. I was convinced this was proof that he was a soul mate until I discovered he greets everyone like that. Big ole' clown.

Jelpy

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Jelpy

Well, he wuffs, he licks my face and he does the scratchy motion with his back leg. I got him about four or five months ago from the local pound after I dropped by and he ran over and threw himself at me for a pat on the head. I was convinced this was proof that he was a soul mate until I discovered he greets everyone like that. Big ole' clown. Jelpy

Sure doesn't sound like he is going to attack! Sounds like he enjoys your play as much as you do!

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Jelpy

Well, he wuffs, he licks my face and he does the scratchy motion with his back leg. I got him about four or five months ago from the local pound after I dropped by and he ran over and threw himself at me for a pat on the head. I was convinced this was proof that he was a soul mate until I discovered he greets everyone like that. Big ole' clown.

Jelpy

That sounds like he likes it. licking the face could be a submissive thing, but the scratching motion wtih the back leg is usually a tickle thing. In any case he does not seem to be fighting it, squirming away, trying to right himself, as a more dominant dog might.

I think your fine.

[Jelpy]

I'm relieved. I hate to give up the raspberry game. I mean, I know it's silly and all but it's just so fun! Lycan is a sweetie. I wasn't kidding when I said he was a big puppy like dog. Grendel is still a puppy but they play together like same age sibs. Such silly Flurfy balls. (Fluffy + Furry)

Jelpy

[LouCastle]

Apologies to the OP for following this off on a tangent.

Originally Posted by DogGone

Alpha rolls are not really dangerous if done properly. Lately there’s been a fascist campaign by a bunch of snobs that don’t know much about canines that claim that Alpha rolls are inherently dangerous.

I may be a snob but I'm certainly not a fascist. I don't know if I know much about canines. Some people think so and some disagree. But I do know that an Alpha Roll can be extremely dangerous if done by the wrong person on the wrong dog. Your face is just a few inches away from the dog's jaws and if he decides that you're NOT going to roll him, it could be painful and disfiguring.

Originally Posted by DogGone

Anyone that has any significant knowledge of canines know that alpha rolls are part of normal healthy pack hierarchy

I'll disagree. I've watched canids at the zoo, watched probably hundreds of TV shows about canids on various natural history shows and have spent countless hours at dog parks and elsewhere watching dogs interacting. I've never seen one dog force another onto his back and then hold him there. I have seen dogs put a foot on another dog's shoulder and then watched as that dog ROLLED HIMSELF to the ground. He was not forced down, he went down voluntarily.

Originally Posted by DogGone

(whether it be dogs at the dog park or wolves in the wild). Alpha rolls is one of the main things that keeps peace within the pack. If you have a pack of dogs and if they don’t exhibit proper social behavior like Alpha rolls then you probably have a very dangerous situation ( like sitting on a keg of dynamite). Alpha rolls done properly do no physical or mental harm; it’s a way of establishing rank without becoming violent. Alpha roll is an alpha roll whether it be voluntary or by force. I’ve been raising GSD for 40 years and have observed wolves and coyotes in the wild for 40 years and can tell you for a fact that alpha rolls are natural and part of healthy socialization.

Since you say this is such a common thing, perhaps you can show us video of it happening. Perhaps video of your dogs doing it to one another or something that someone else has shot that's available on the Net?

Originally Posted by DogGone

Almost every dog would prefer to be top dog.

I don't think so. I think that FEW dogs want to be the top dog. Most would be just as happy or even happier following the alpha.

Originally Posted by DogGone

People that insist that alpha rolls are inherently dangerous, don’t know what they are talking about and are bullies.

I understand how you might think that these folks "don't know what they're talking about" but how did you come to the conclusion that they "are bullies?"

Originally Posted by DogGone

I’ve been alpha rolling dogs for over 40 years and not a single dog has been hurt physically or mentally

It sounds like there is a bully in the works here, but it's not the person who opposes the Alpha Roll.

Originally Posted by DogGone

I

Originally Posted by DogGone

f it’s done properly; as you say the dogs typically enjoy it.

Perhaps you might give some thought to describing it in detail. As I understand it and as I've seen it done, NOT ONE DOG has "enjoy[ed] it."

Originally Posted by DogGone

I’ve seen wolves and coyotes do it in the wild. In the dog park and at home I have seen dogs alpha roll each other much like a wrestling game.

An Alpha Roll has nothing to do with "a wrestling game." As you describe it, it's an expression of dominance and there's no "game" in that.

Originally Posted by DogGone

People that say that Alpha Rolls are inherently harmful and do not happen in nature; are lying and do not know what they are talking about.

Perhaps they're merely mistaken or they have an different opinion. Some people think that they are the final arbiter of all knowledge and others realize that they don't have all the answers.

Originally Posted by DogGone

People should know they can’t believe everything they read (whether it be in a book or on the Internet) see on TV, hear, etc.…

Do you mean, kinda like your post?

CLICK HERE for an article that I wrote on the Alpha Roll. BTW, they came back into popularity with the book by The Monks of New Skete, How to be Your Dog's Best Friend. In the second edition of that book, they said that they regretted having written about it and that they no longer recommended doing them.

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted by DogGone

I’ve had many idiots in denial, lecture me about using alpha rolls, and the use of shock collars. Yet my dog is relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave; yet their dogs are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc….

I've been training dogs for over 30 years now and have never felt the need to Alpha Roll one dog that I was working with. I did it once to my own dog when I was starting out, when a trainer told me that's what the dog needed. He was wrong. None of the dogs that I train "are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…. "

Originally Posted by DogGone

Yet almost every time their dog is getting into trouble they blame someone else instead of their dog and themselves. These idiots like to make up stupid rules; like balls and Frisbees shouldn’t be at the dog park; dogs shouldn’t run, bark and wrestle at a dog park. They insist that no other dogs go near their dog when their dog is drinking; because they allow their dog to be water aggressive; since they are denial they tried to shift the blame onto other people so it’s your fault if their dog becomes water aggressive. These types of people are nurturing bad behavior and are enabling dangerous situations.

Perhaps they are but I don't see what any of this has to do with Alpha Rolls. Do you think that if those folks Rolled their dogs that all of their issues would be solved?

[selzer]

Lou, what is your opinion on Jelpe's Rasberry Rolls?

[Jelpy]

Originally Posted by selzer

Lou, what is your opinion on Jelpe's Rasberry Rolls?

I never thought of it quite that way. I think 'raspberry roll" is a better name than the Raspberry game.

Jelpy