Not obeying "come" when returning home from walks

[H15A5H1]

I have a 8month old GSD named Otto that loves to go out for walks and play time. However, we cannot stay out the entire day and must return home after a couple hours.

After a nice walk tonight, we returned back to our house. When I opened the door to let Otto in, he would not obey at all. Usually I could bait him with some treats and lure him in. Today however, I ran out of treats and he would not obey at all. After trying to physically move him and tugging on the leash, he actually showed an aggressive stance and barked at me! (The same stance and bark he displays during our "SPEAK" training)

Since nothing worked, I just went inside the house without him. I left him in the front yard by himself (dont worry, our yard is gated). After 5min or so, he eventually came into the house.

I want to know how to make this not a daily struggle everyday. Should his "Aggressive stance/bark" worry me? Or is this just a typical puppy tantrum?

[Lila]

My 5 month old female will do this on occasion but I've noticed that she has had a reason. For example... She didn't finish taking care of business while we were out. She needed a little more time and was trying to tell me that.

I personally wouldn't worry unless Otto makes this a habit. If you have the Pack Leader position in all other ways this might just be a one shot deal. My GSD will think for herself sometimes, contrary to what I want, and it has gotten her into trouble with Mother Nature. (Falling off a three foot wall for instance.) I doubt that I can make her stop being independent at times.

[KittyKat]

Hi

IMO I think its him being a rebelious teenager. A sneeky way of trying to show dominance. Unless he thinks its a game. Then its fun to him and when it no longer becomes fun then he doesn't want to do it anymore (like the leaving him out there then him deciding when he wants to come in) I would make letting him in on YOUR terms though. Don't leave the door open and just let him waltz in when HE feels like it. Or he wins.

I dislike treat training exactly for this reason..... you never know where you will be and you run out of treats then what? Rewards sometimes are what we do... because he never knows if he's going to get one at all. But we still have to remember they are still puppies... but I see your point that its a pain...

[Kayos and Havoc]

Well, I would be a little concerned about this.

Otto is 8 months old and entering adolescence. His behavior sounds as if he is trying to see what the rules really are. If you give in and let him set the rules and decide when HE wants to come in YOU will be the follower and he the leader. Not good at all. And you may say he is just a puppy, but the relationship starts with puppies and then this becomes habit. The "aggressive" stance and bark tell me he may be pushing your buttons on purpose.

Now I am not saying be ugly or harsh, I am saying be consistent and firm. I hope you do not walk him without a leash. If you are in the yard with him leave a leash or long line on him so that you can step on it or pick it up to keep him from getting away from you. Make coming to you fun. When he turns toward you praise him. When he comes to you reward him with a toy, more play, food or praise. I would not even use a recall command just let him figure the action brings reward and then add the word. If you have the long line you have control. I would not lure him with food, that is simple bribery and he will see through that. It also lowers your status. By keeping physical control with the line and letting him come to you for reward you do a few things: 1)He has some choice and can figure out that he can come and get soemthing good for it. That will make him want to come to you and you become his benevolent leader. 2) removes confrontation that will illicit that "aggressive" stance and bark at you. 3) Builds your positive relationship and you both win.

Just a reminder - do not use your recall word to end games or good things or discipline him when he deos respond. You want him to always respond to the recall as you might need it in an emergency one day. Don't water down it's effectiveness by punishment, or nagging, or confrontation.

[GSDElsa]

I agree with Kathy, except she DID have him on the leash and she still couldn't get him inside.

I'm definitely all for reward based training and do it myself. But at the same time, the dog can NOT get away with certain behavior. If I ran into a situation like that and the refusal to come in was not anxiety based (because that changes how you should deal with it), I would march right over (don't call him for punishment), grab the leash and make him go in the house. If you're not strong enough to pull, I'd stand behind and "goose" him into the house.

Also, if he pulls back like that on the leash, I'd be worried about him slipping his collar. If you don't already have one, I'd go out and get a martingale.

[Kayos and Havoc]

Agree on the martingale, but I am willing to bet this tugging back on the leash has happened before and he has learned he can use it to his advantage and then has been lured and bribed. Reward and bribe are very different.

I think I would still use the method of allowing him to learn to come and earn unstead of forcing him. I have no idea how big the OP is but within a few months if he or she is my size they won't force anything. All force earns is distrust.

[GSDElsa]

Originally Posted By: KathyWAgree on the martingale, but I am willing to bet this tugging back on the leash has happened before and he has learned he can use it to his advantage and then has been lured and bribed. Reward and bribe are very different.

I think I would still use the method of allowing him to learn to come and earn unstead of forcing him. I have no idea how big the OP is but within a few months if he or she is my size they won't force anything. All force earns is distrust.

I do agree with that as a general training principle. But as an "in the moment" sitation, I'm not sure I would have let him loose in that yard to do as he pleases and come in when he pleases.

[MaggieRoseLee]

Quote: Usually I could bait him with some treats and lure him in. Today however, I ran out of treats and he would not obey at all. After trying to physically move him and tugging on the leash, he actually showed an aggressive stance and barked at me!

Think part of your difficulty is the way you are looking at the situation, and that affects how you are dealing with your puppy.

Instead of thinking of 'baiting' with the treats cause otherwise he 'disobeys'....................... Think of it as REWARDING his good behavior (coming) when he DOES obey. It may seem like no difference but it's a huge difference in a real trainers mental mindset.

And while initially we may think of using obvious food in our hands as a 'lure' the real part of dog training has us maybe start with this obvious sign of the reward but then (and we all tend to mess this part up) start fading the OBVIOUS food/reward and upping our criteria. In training we want our dog to think. To begin to think 'WHEN I do this...................THEN I get my reward'. And the time between the behavior/reward can extend.

The final part of this is to get to random reinforcement. So first most of the time (almost all of the time) the food treat still appears. But overtime, we sometimes only give praise, sometimes same treats, and sometimes a real jackpot of a reward. Keeps our dogs on their toes and WANTING to listen/learn/obey.

Aggressive stance is the final part of this you need to tweak your mind with. Cause I think there is one thing you have REALLY taught your dog. REally well. And he's a rocket scientist. You have taught him he doesn't have to come in unless you have a treat. And you have taught him to 'speak' (hey, that's a GREAT command BTW) when you forget the treat, and when he does that you will go get the treat for him. Yopr dog doesn't sound 'aggressive' to me at all. He sounds like he's a bit confused why you aren't listening, and he's communicating the only way he knows to 'remind' you to go get his treat!

I always need to keep in mind that learning goes both ways. Sometime I teach my dog. And sometimes they teach me. When they stand near the counter with the treat jar, guess what they are 'telling' me. HEY MOM, how about a treat. When they stand beside the outside door they are 'teaching' me, HEY MOM I want to go outdoors. Neither one of these statements are 'aggressive' both can lead to barking if I ignore or 'teach' them I hear/obey barking better. And all of it shows I too am teachable!

I think what would help you is to do what I have to do to get my dogs inside in a rush. Initially, I may have a small treat in my hand, but I ONLY give it to them once we are inside. Very quickly I make sure that treat is small and low value while we then continue into the house where the REAL treats are. The treat jar! And when we get there, I open it, get a handful, and we run thru some fast happy behaviors like sit/down/beg/shake/whatever, and have a happy happy fun fun time IN the house. WITH the treats.

Good luck with your VERY intelligent dog.

BTW, have you found some great dog classes yet that challenge both of you? I know the better my dog classes, the better my relationship/training goes with my dog.

[middleofnowhere]

I'm going to agree with MRL on this one. I don't see agression in this at all - I see a pup figuring out how to get what he wants.

I am going through that with a 3.5 mo old pup. I have a different dog every day - both physically and mentally. I am trying very hard to practice what I preach regarding rewarding the positive & ignoring the negative. Possitive every time she comes, every time she sits, every time she runs to her crate & hops in for a treat. And usually when she barks at the rake. Negative & ignoring ruckus in the crate wanting out, barking at the garden shears (not good to attack THOSE!), biting me. [very hard to ignore biting the human stuff - some times I just yell!]

On the occassions when I have her on lead and she doesn't want to come in for squat after a lap or seven around the front yard, I offer a toy for her mouth, pick her up and bring her in & act like it is just hunky dorry. I remind myself that I will miss this stage when it passes, that she will soon not even resemble a puppy, that in 10 or 12 years she will be an old dog with the old dog issues and I will long for the devil in the dog or at least the body of the pup that the devil in the dog inhabitted!

[H15A5H1]

Thanks for all the insight everyone! The pointers definitely helped me out in seeing this situation clearly.

Today, I took him for a brisk walk with some home-made peanutbutter dog biscuit treats along the way. However, I mixed in some tiny pieces of ham in the same treat bag. Otto obviously could smell the ham in there the entire walk. When it was time to go back into the house, I revealed the ham and he just followed me inside where i treated him. :] There was still a bit of hesitation before he came in, but with time I think it should get better.