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MA: New Subj Line Male Fritz special needs (will stay with owner)

9K views 54 replies 21 participants last post by  katieliz 
#1 ·
Our 97 pound 3 year old New Skete Shepherd bit a visitor in our yard on Friday night. Here's the e-mail I sent to the Monks of New Skete about which they met and gave us their advice this morning to euthanize;

Good afternoon Brothers;

Sorry about this development,very sad and disappointing time here. Fritz has grown up to be a 97 pound lovable,playful companion with serious issues that have been present since the first day we brought him home. On day 1 at 8 weeks old he showed that he would charge people,barking uncontrollably with hair raised like I've never seen before. He also showed himself to be a submissive urinator. Both behaviors continue. We contacted Julia and Br Christopher at 4 months old after attempting to get help with a local trainer/behaviorist who schooled us in use of a dogtra. Br Christopher spoke to me at length and referred me to another behaviorist near me (Cavalleto Canine).Of course in that public square evaluation,Fritz showed nothing of his natural tendencies. I gathered as much info as I could through books and other GSD breeders throughout the country. Fritz is a very weak nerved GSD who is extremely overreactive to non threatening stimuli. He is like a maniac with his barking when most people come to the door or the backyard fence. He will charge if not held in a down stay with verbal and dogtra control. He will not settle down until he gets to sniff the person and it doesn't matter how familiar that person is. At night if the family comes home in the dark,he will charge out the front door at whoever he can't recognize. Verbal scoldings or what he deems rough handling by the collar or physical blocking will result in weeks of submissive urination when approached to give affection or collar for a walk. Head down,body crouched.ears pinned. Very sensitive.
We walk and ballplay Fritz twice every single day in the local parks and bogs for approx 2 hours,sometimes more. Another dog accompanies us 75% of the time and he loves him. Other dogs he will challenge every time we see them til Fritz feels comfortable. Have to be very careful with dog introductions,though he has been significantly socialized. In the couple of occasions when his challenge has escalated,he will back down as soon as the other dog gives it back. He is non confrontational when competing for a toy or ball.

On Friday night January 1st we planned a backyard party for the opening of our backyard skating rink. We expected about 10 kids and 4 adults and it was semi lighted out back. 5 kids showed up early and Fritz went through the usual routine,barking like crazy til he got to sniff each kid. When they got dressed to go outside Fritz got frantic because he loves to go out with kids and just be with them. We went on the ice (Fritz is trained to stay off). He was highly stimulated,whining and running back and forth with a toy. I put him in a down at least 5 times and he just would lay there and whine and whine and when it got the better of him he would go back to running back and forth,repeat the process. After about 45 minutes of this,more people arrived and I was on the ice so a neighbor that Fritz is very friendly with had him in a down stay with me watching and he saw me. The woman who arrived came through the gate and spoke to my wife,Fritz is turned in the opposite direction 8 feet away,straining to see and whining. The woman then turned to leave and walked 5 feet and I saw Fritz suddenly jump to his feet,run at the woman in a crouched position extremely aggressively as if she were prey. He grabbed her by the upper back leg and shook his head,taking out one chunk of skin and ripping her pants to shreds. It lasted no more than a second as he was grabbed by my wife and dragged against his will inside the house.

With his temperament it finally appears he cannot be controlled by us beyond any mistakes in a household where kids and their parents regularly visit. Looking back,it's clear to us that he somehow fooled your puppy testers and socializers. I don't know how that happened as he showed very weak nerves from the very first day. Not the cuddly warm puppy,passersby could greet or pat.
 
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#2 ·
It sounds like his frustration level was thru the roof and that caused him to rush the woman. Who advised you to put him down? New Skete? Can I ask why you didn't put him in a crate when it was obvious the excitement was to much for him? And Nooooo...I am not blaming you for the bite but as a third party, I see an array of things I would have done differently after years of living with a human aggressive dog.
 
#4 ·
ok. I guess I'm not sure what you are expecting for responses? I thought you were looking for an "eval" of what you could possibly do and didn't understand you had already made the decision to follow through with that recommendation. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
 
#5 ·
He should never have been made to stay there in a down stay when CLEARLY he was stressed. This was human error. You knew your dog was weak nerves. You knew didn't react appropriately to anyone coming over, even ones he knows. Yet you put him in a situation far beyond what he could handle, and then act surprised he bit?! That was a lot to take in even for a solid nerve dog.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App
 
#7 ·
I have to say the same...there's not a lot of our dogs we'd have dragged out to a situation like this, and none of ours has a history of human aggression.

He will charge if not held in a down stay with verbal and dogtra control.
Are you shocking the dog to keep him in place? Just curious how the e-collar is used in this instance.
 
#8 ·
It sounds like fear aggression more then anything, very weak nerves in a busy setting

I hope either the breeder is taking him back, or he's finding another home :(. With work and in a different setting he might be fine. But if he's truly that far gone euthanization might be the kindest thing
 
#12 ·
I'm also confused about what you want from this thread. For what it's worth, I do think that after a bite like that, euthanasia is probably the best option. Finding him a suitable new home will be very difficult if not impossible, and you clearly should not have him in your home.

However, I also agree that in your post, I saw multiple instances where you made huge mistakes and set your dog up for this bite. He may have a weak temperament, but as the human in this situation, it is your responsibility to either determine that you cannot handle that temperament early on and rehome him, or manage him appropriately. He should not have been out in your yard at that party with the history you describe, and even if he was, you should not have trusted him to a neighbor--in a stressful situation, he needs his owner there 100% of the time. Whether or not this dog had a flawed temperament, from what you have written here you let him down in a big way, as well and endangering the safety of all of your guests.

I am sure this is not an easy situation for you and I am not trying to be cruel, but I hope you will consider this when you look into another dog.

edit: I'm sorry for redundancy on the confusion bit, I left the reply window open while I was looking into New Skete Shepherds and missed a couple of posts above.
 
#13 ·
I'm sorry to read this:( I do not mean to be harsh, I'm sure you feel guilty/bad enough as it is over this incident, however, I do agree with the others, Fritz has had issues his entire life and you, unfortunately failed him, now he will pay with his life.

Dogs like this have to be managed 24/7 and it CAN be done, but I imagine it's to late for Fritz:(
 
#14 ·
Since this is now in non-urgent, I'll assume you are looking to place him. Could you please tell us what training he has had? Is it strictly correction based for these behaviors as in the e-collar at 4 months old? Or has any behavior modifications such as LAT/BAT been tried?

Please tell us how he behaves with his family, people he knows, how long it takes him to "get to know" someone.

Have you tried contacting any rescues to have them do an evaluation on him? I doubt they will take him with a bite history but an outside evaluation may be a good thing.
 
#15 ·
Of course the dog was mis-managed for this incident to happen, but the OP bought this dog, at upwards of $3,000, as a family companion. The pup was not a rescue, nor was it a working line dog that works great but is a terrible pet (this type of dog could maybe be re-homed to sport or working home), the pup was purchased from a breeder that emphasizes their dogs as family companions.

The OP contacted the breeder almost immediately, told them the pup had some serious issues. In my opinion, the breeder should have, at that point taken the pup back and offered the OP a new pup or a refund. This would have been when the pup was just 4 months old. The monks presumably have adequate kennel space and handlers that they could have managed the pup/dog for the rest of his life and given him a reasonably happy existence.

The submissive peeing and inability to bounce back after an incident are huge red flags for me. Barking at strangers and reactivity can be worked with and trained, but severely weak nerves can never be overcome. I'd be interested in what other behaviorists have said about Fritz- and the internet is not place to determine if a dog should be euthanized. I would HOPE that the monks would at least want to see the dog in person- or get input from a behaviorist that has worked with the dog directly- before making their recommendation. I am more disappointed in the breeder's response here than in the OPs. It sounds like he has put a lot of work on this dog and of course made a mistake with management, but he ended up with a very different dog than he thought he was getting.

To be honest, very few people want a dog that needs to be managed 24/7. I know working dog people who have done this with dogs with serious aggression issues, but average people are looking for a companion, not a liability.
 
#18 ·
I am more disappointed in the breeder's response here than in the OPs.
Cannot agree more with this.

The Monks emphasize and make it a point to state that any and all dogs that are put up for surrender will first be brought back to their kennel. That is clearly not happening.

Must wonder why. I would hammer their phone lines and mailboxes to get this dog back there and make them put the dog in their highly touted and expensive training program. If they care about their dogs, they will.
 
#19 ·
The OP contacted the breeder almost immediately, told them the pup had some serious issues. In my opinion, the breeder should have, at that point taken the pup back and offered the OP a new pup or a refund.
The Skete folks seem to have washed their hands of this situation and the pup and hope it'll go away quickly from the sounds of it.
I'm really surprised they didn't offer lifelong training as part of the puppy package :(
 
#22 ·
Fritz loves the family and is mostly calm in the house. He freaks when someone comes to the door. He freaks when someone comes to the gate. He responds to most stimulus around the neighborhood with a bark. He calms down as soon as he gets to sniff the visitor but is very very intimidating til then. He then accepts anyone in his presence. Most people he will attempt to charge to sniff but in a very excited manner. If it's dark he would even charge the family. He is also very submissive and will cower if approached without distraction. If he approaches you it's fine but usually he'll wait til you are sitting. He will submissively urinate if pressured when he is laying down or otherwise pressured with forceful presence. Loves kids,loves to play but gets over the top excited when they are running around etc. Loves ballplay and walks and is very very fit. Also very intelligent and responds to hand signals and basic commands on first request,unless excited. Dogtra training has worked and he will stop or retreat to me if nicked every time. Doesn't trust other dogs and will challenge them,eventually he accepts them and they become playmates but he plays rough.
 
#24 ·
If this dog gets sent back to the monks...its a death sentence. They generally just import trained dogs and kind of have their own lines developed from that but I know for a fact they import a lot of their stud dogs. They are still extremely "old school" and I don't believe they would bother dealing with a dog like this.

Once the dog has bitten...there isn't a single rescue in the United States that would touch it. You might want to look into some local Schutzhund clubs and see if anyone there would be willing to help. It does sound like this dog might do pretty well in a working home where he'd have an outlet for some of that energy.

Although the monks breed family companions, they usually use WGSL dogs and so they are all titled in Schutzhund (I believe) from before they are with the monks. These dogs should be capable of work and it just sounds like this was a bad match. We have a member at our club that's on his second skete dog, up until a few months ago (I haven't seen him in a while) he seemed like a very nice pup.
 
#35 ·
Once the dog has bitten...there isn't a single rescue in the United States that would touch it.
Just wanted to adjust this a bit, for anyone who might be reading and find themselves in a similar situation to the OP... While the majority of rescues won't take a dog with a bite history (or will take it but euthanize it immediately), I have personally worked with several that didn't automatically rule those dogs out. Generally, they would do an evaluation into the circumstances and fear reactive dogs were generally accepted. Then they either spent extra time working with the dog (for rescues with behavioral programs or skilled fosters), or they were extra careful with placement, or both. I don't know about GSD rescue norms, but I know that for awhile when I was working with another breed rescue, probably half our adult dogs were there because of some kind of bite history.

So in other words, don't expect it, but if you're between a rock and a hard place with a dog you think could be okay in a different situation but you can't handle, at least try contacting rescues in your area. Even if they don't take dogs with a bite history, they may be able to point you to resources in the community that can help.

OP, I really hope that trainer in NY works out. I hope you will keep us updated. As I said in my PM, I didn't understand your post at first but I admire you for putting yourself out there for public criticism in order to try to help Fritz.
 
#25 ·
One option would be for him to go into a quiet, remote home, like a farm. A place with few visitors and with people who would not want/need him to interact with visitors. Some might even appreciate the bark. People could crate him when they have guests coming over.
I had several rescues like this and they were happy to live out their life in their own little world. Training helped, but they were never trustworthy around strangers. They just wore a muzzle around new people and we never had accidents. It can be managed, but it is an effort.
 
#27 ·
Unless you withhold the fact he's bitten, you will find it next to impossible to place him. Responsible, good homes want dogs that have not bitten and that don't go psycho when people come over.
The only homes that might want him are homes that should not have him.

The responsible thing to do, other than keep and work with him - and put him up when people come over - is euthanasia.
 
#29 ·
OP, please do consider taking the pup to Tufts since you are so close to that wonderful resource. If, you are not willing to try other methods to manage him (and I would highly advise again the ones you have been using) then you have a tough decision to make. It is highly unlikely that a rescue will be able to take on the liability and it can take a long time to find an adopter who can handle such a dog - it's how I ended up with my Holly. She too is weak nerved and had bitten a couple of people by 6 months old before I agreed to foster her and work with her. She's not placeable so she will be in my home forever.

There is also a trainer in NY, K9-1 Dog Training, that takes on difficult dogs and will sometimes rehome them to knowledgeable people.
 
#30 ·
someone suggested a working home, the monks are not breeding dogs for schutzhund and such..This is a business that supports their monastary(sp). They've been breeding for "years".

And I agree if the dog were sent back, I'm sure they would euthanize him if they told the OP to do it.

Since they told the OP that a NY Trainer may be interested I would pursue that if it's possible for you.

I don't think placing him in a home that is not gsd savvy(trainer) would be adviseable..he needs a someone who knows exactly how to handle him ..

I don't know if she could help you, but I would contact Marta Bailey at Smartydog in CT..She deals with problem dogs especially gsd's, as she's had many in the past. I don't know if she could refer you or help you but it's worth a shot if you don't think the NY trainer thing will work..
 
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