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A hard decision

19K views 116 replies 32 participants last post by  NancyJ 
#1 ·
Hi all,

Last friday me and my mum went to pick up our new puppy, a swiss white shepherd, 8 weeks old. We were super excited to pick her up of course, but when we arrived it turned out not to be so exciting. The breeder arrived in her car at the same time we arrived there, she stepped out and said she had very bad news for us. One of her female gsd's who normally always walks in between the puppies had bitten her while her daughter was cleaning the food bowl. The puppy was too close to the bowl and the gsd gave her a correction, thinking she was going to eat her food, but a bit too hard and bit her in her face instead of her neck.
This was a huge shock for us (and for the breeder), this had never happened before. We know she's a reputable breeder, and accidents happen, but we were still very shocked.
We later arrived at the animal hospital, where they did some tests and she ended up just having two puncture wounds and a slightly dislocated jaw because of the swelling.
The breeder said she would understand if we didn't want the puppy anymore, but said that the best thing to do was to at least take her for a week and see how she'll be by the end of the week, and then decide if we want her or bring her back.

This has been eating me alive, I'm still very much in shock and I don't know what to do. We decided to get a swiss shepherd because my mum has had a bad experience with a german shepherd, while I really wanted a gsd. It is going to be my dog, and I'm going to take it with me when I move out. (I'm 16 now. Yes we have thought about the whole "you're in school, you might go to college and live on your own" part.) I have experience with dogs, trained a guide dog (who'll be leaving this september to go to doggie college.) and have always loved dogs. But i just don't know what to do. We're very scared that the puppy would be traumatized by the incident, or that I'll regret getting a swiss shepherd while my heart lays with gsd's. But I think no matter what I'd choose, I am going to have some regrets. It's only been a week and she's been an amazing puppy, walking on the lead, potty outside and very nice to people. She shakes and completely freezes when she sees another dog.

I am completely lost and I just don't know what to do. Everyone around me tells me "you do what you think is best." Well that helps. I have been thinking and thinking and it's making me sick, so I think I need some outside opinions, since everyone who sees the puppy falls in love with the fluffyness and says "She's too cute! You should keep her!" Cuteness is not a reason to keep a dog, but they all say keep her because of that.

Please help, I am really scared of choosing the wrong thing and ugh. Help.
 
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#2 ·
So is the puppy going to be okay physically? No long-term issues? For me, I would be hesitant about keeping a dog that may have issues with other dogs down the road. You mentioned that she shakes and freezes when she sees other dogs. That may escalate to reactivity or aggression, and I know that I couldn't handle that, especially if I was heading off to college in a few years. You could get some help from a trainer now if you think it will be a problem, and she might be okay!

All puppies are very cute, so you should not let her cuteness sway your decision. Also, you mentioned that you would prefer a GSD? Just my two cents, but you are going to be the one caring for this dog for its whole life. You mom will only need to live with it for (hopefully) 2 years. Of course I understand that your mom's opinion matters and that it is still her home, but I would be inclined to say that you should get the breed that you want. You shouldn't have regrets about your new dog that you will have for 12-15 years.

Good luck!
 
#3 ·
I would have llet the BREEDER keep her for a week. She was counting on your getting attached TO the puppy so that no matter what you would wind up with her.

The freezing and shaking would be a major issue for me. A pup that could have a lifetime of having to be managed instead of being a great family companion. The fact that she released the puppy to you after this incident speaks volumes. I can't even begin to imagine she would put the injured pup through adapting to a new home.

I would walk. I would feel very bad for the puppy though.

I think a swiss shepherd is merely a white german shepherd. Correct me if I am wrong but I would wonder about the temperament of the dogs given the biting incidents. Young puppies normally get a pass by older dogs. I am not a breeder though.
 
#4 ·
If it were me, I would ask the breeder to keep the dog until this issue has resolved and the pup is all healed, and re-evaluate then. (Obviously only if the pup is kept safely away from the offending dog!)

For what it's worth, I got my dog as a puppy when I was 20, and took him to college with me. It worked out beautifully. I found a small apartment a couple miles from campus and the landlord is fine with an 85lb GSD. Don't let your life plans get in the way of your life!

Good luck with the pup and let us know how it goes.
 
#7 ·
Use your brain and not rely on emotions right now. You are taking a huge risk by taking in this pup; you could very well end up with a dog aggressive dog, even though it doesn't have to show up until later as a young adult. I know in Europe, the White Shepherds often have nervousness in them. I guess you are from the UK as you are referring to 'my mum'?
The fact that an adult mauls a young pup like that doesn't show strong stable lines, no matter the excuses being used. Why didn't the breeder notify you until you were already there? Hoping you couldn't resist the pup?
I would turn away and not go back.
 
#8 ·
I can't believe the breeder had the guts to want you to take the puppy in that condition, and needing to go to the vet's right away. She should have taken the puppy herself, to her vet, too care of all treatment and follow-up, and in the meantime called you to let you know what was going on.

To me, that is a huge red flag. She was more concerned about you still taking the puppy, than getting it immediate medical attention. Also, since she has multiple dogs, she would have the chance to work with it and help it to overcome its now extreme fear of other dogs.

Walk away...
 
#14 ·
I can't believe the breeder had the guts to want you to take the puppy in that condition, and needing to go to the vet's right away. She should have taken the puppy herself, to her vet, too care of all treatment and follow-up, and in the meantime called you to let you know what was going on.

To me, that is a huge red flag. She was more concerned about you still taking the puppy, than getting it immediate medical attention. Also, since she has multiple dogs, she would have the chance to work with it and help it to overcome its now extreme fear of other dogs.

Walk away...
[emphasis added]

It's a sad story anyway you look at it, but I agree with Marsha. This could go badly in a number of ways down the line. I think a truly "reputable breeder" would have told you to hold off. Not passed the puppy off on a new 16 year old owner.
As was said earlier in the thread, use logic (and not emotions) to deal with this situation. Sorry you have to deal with this.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for all your answers and advice.
The pup got bitten 10 minutes before we arrived, and was immediately taken to an animal hospital, so it did have medical attention right after it happened. The breeder arrived at her house at the same time as us to pick us up and tell us the situation, while the vet and her daughter were caring for the puppy.

Now I do realise that it indeed was very irresponsible to have taken her, and we're calling the breeder as soon as possible to bring her back. It really breaks my heart, but I know it's the best for me and the best for the pup. I know that I will be worrying if I'd keep her of her getting aggressive towards dogs, which will be bad for her and only make her more nervous.

I'm from the Netherlands, not the Uk, I do have a british father though, if that explains the "my mum" part :)

We do still want a puppy though, so after explaining to my mum that gsd's aren't the viscious monsters she thinks they are, she's warming up to it a bit.
My dad and I have been looking into gsd lines and breeders. We're thinking of a working line dog, since the angled backs of the showlines make me feel a little uncomfortable (no offence). And after seeing a guy walking with 5 showline gsd's who were the most anxious dogs I've ever seen. Maybe just a bad breeder/trainer but it still threw me off a bit.

Again, thanks for all your advice, and if you could give me some tips wether to choose show- or workline it would be wonderful.
 
#10 ·
You need to understand a couple of things: A Swiss Shepherd, IS a German Shepherd, bred for the white color which is a fault in the SV and the AKC.

As with any breed being bred for a specific color, the gene pool is being limited, and making this a separate breed will mean that out crossing will end, and the dogs will be even more in-bred and that in itself will not hurt individual dogs, but recessive genes will be on both sides of the equation and so, whatever is there, will come out in puppies with a greater frequency, in health, conformation, and temperament.

I've seen white dogs. None that I want to own. Back in the 80s, 90s, there were some that temperamentally were unstable, fear biting dogs. Has it gotten better? I really don't know. Those that bred the white dogs, were those that were ok breeding outside of the standard to meet customer wants, in color alone, which means, not necessarily breeding for structure or health.

More recently, since they can be shown in UKC here in the states, there are some breeders of the white dogs that are, in ways other than color, following the standard, and testing their dogs. Also I've seen a few in obedience classes that were nice dogs. So maybe things are getting a little better.

Evenso, if your mom is afraid that the dog will be dangerous because of the breed, in this instance, she has made it more likely to get a less than stellar dog, by going Swiss instead of German. You are more likely to find a good GSD breeder and a GSD of excellent character than a Swiss Shepherd.

Now for this pup. For the dam to bite the pup so hard as to cause puncture wounds and dislocate the jaw, I think that is all you need to know. The pup gets 50% of its genes (including temperament) from this bitch, but it has also been imprinted (temperament) by this bitch. Double whammy. It has also had a serious injury/incident at a time when learning is concrete. The dog is likely to have lasting issues with dogs, or at least require seriously careful socialization.

I think you should return the puppy as hard as that sounds to the breeder. They are responsible to deal with problems in their breeding stock. And for you to take on that, it just makes it that much easier for them to ignore that they have something seriously wrong with their breeding bitch to do such a thing.

If the bitch that did the biting was not the dam, than they have something seriously wrong with the management of their dogs/kennel. It is there problem, and I am concerned with your mother's overall experience with this dog, if you are to keep it. It will make her impression of the breed that much worse.

And, I agree, bringing the puppy and asking you to try it for a week that was foul. She should have called you on the phone and explained the entire situation and offered to hang onto the puppy until it was healed, and to work with the puppy around other dogs, to ensure he "forget" the negative experience.

I have had 19 litters in 12 years, and I have never had a bitch make a mark on her 8 week old (or younger) puppy. There is something wrong with a bitch that does this, and the puppy, most likely, has that in its genes.
 
#31 ·
First, what does this pup being white have to do with the fact that it was bitten by a dog due to negligence?

The pup is less likely to recover because it's white and therefore temperamentally inferior? If this is a backyard breeder who is irresponsible, which we don't even know, then maybe it is temperamentally inferior anyway due to poor breeding.

I just don't see the need to bring it up. I just don't. Sometimes I get so sick of the snobbiness on here I want to bang my head against a wall.
 
#11 ·
I am on the keep the pup and do heavy socialization. I have a dog that was viciously attacked as a young pup(a little older then yours) by a Rott. He is now 7 and the best dog ever. He has no issues. He had just started puppy school when it happened. We went to every class(where the demo dog was a Rott) and I never gave him any special treatment. He wasn't babied and I treated him like any other dog. Was there a chance it wouldn't work that? Maybe, but I wasn't going to let it.
 
#12 ·
The owner is 16, her mother is afraid of GSDs due to a bad experience. Do you even read the OP? Or are you so worried about every single puppy out there, that that is always your answer?

A dog whose mother is such a flake that she will bite and cause damage to an eight week old puppy, whose been bitten and seriously injured at eight weeks old, is no starter dog for people who have no experience and an existing fear.

I'm sorry llombardo, but this is just bad advice.
 
#13 · (Edited)
If this is your first pup, I wouldn't suggest starting with a rehab pup. We all make tons of mistakes with our first dog when we're young -- most of us wish we had a rewind button sometimes. You may not have any room for error with a rehab pup.

Rescues routinely take on severely injured pups -- we can do it because we have great vets that can work on correct healing, experienced fosters who will put in the time to rebuild confidence and who have sweet personal dogs that are good, nurturing role models. That's a learned skill set. I've even taken on one that was suspected of being used as a bait dog by dog fighters and miraculously survived -- disfigured permanently, but sweet as the day is long, in a forever home that loves him endlessly, and knows how to give him the most normal life he can have. He needs extra care, and perhaps always will. I'd never put this kind of attacked pup with a newbie foster home or forever home, no matter how well meaning -- it's just not fair. I'd imagine ethical breeders would feel similarly.

This pup has been through real trauma. You do not know how the jaw will heal. There are lots of long-term complications that are possible. You also do not know how the psyche will heal. Good intentions aren't enough if you end up with fear aggressive adult someday. The pup needs a plan, and a support system (including a great trainer and vet, and exposure to carefully selected, gentle, nurturing helper dogs early and often).

I would think of this as a "special needs" pup needing a "salvage" placement -- good breeders find caring, experienced homes for damaged pups and adults. These homes take them knowing their issues and have the resources to help them. Dwarfs, deformed limbs, mega-E, blind...stuff happens, even to good breeders, and they don't have to be put down when the breeder has a circle of people they trust to care for a special needs pup. A very young pup severely attacked by another dog is special needs, as far as I'm concerned.

My only hang-up here is I know what my local UNETHICAL breeders do with injured, deformed, damaged, unsaleable pups that need pricey vet care. I've had way too many vet clinics and shelters call asking rescue to take them on after they were dumped. That really worries me for this pup.
 
#16 ·
Yes to all of this.

But also this puppy is a mixture of the genes of the dam and the sire. And the dam is highly suspect of being unstable. So, even with a knowledgeable and experienced foster/forever home, this puppy may not be able to overcome who his genes say he is. Which could mean a sad outcome after everyone is really attached. Probably, capable hands will be able to produce a manageable puppy. But it is only a probable outcome.

And yes, we do not know what a breeder will do with the puppy. And that is what makes this such a tough decision. Probably the breeder will sell the puppy to another unsuspecting buyer for half price in 3-4 weeks or when the outward cuts are pretty much healed. And serious issues will crop up when the pup is 5-8 months old, or 9-18 months. We really do not know for sure.

The thing is, that the OP has good reasons, the best reasons not to try and make it work with this dog. If this dog displays the temperament of the mother, than the OP can forget about having a GSD in her family down the line. Two years from now the OP might be on here, distraught, saying that her dog bit a small child several times while trying to attack the child's dog, and now they want to put the dog to sleep. It is amazing how attached you can become to a special-needs dog.

A special-needs dog needs a full-time owner. Yes, the dog can be crated or kenneled during the school day or work day, but you can't leave a dog like this with a parent for the school year or even a semester at a time. Not if that parent is frightened of big dogs with the potential of biting. This dog will need an owner with a boat-load of confidence, who knows how to read body language, and who is present pretty much whenever the pup is out of its safe place.

A pup of good character can overcome even this much of an injury at such a time, given the right owners, with the right amount of experience and willingness to take on the pup. The odds are all against this pup's genetic temperament though.

As hard as it is, it is not up to the OP to ensure this pup's future. They are not in any position, really. In the best of situations, what the OP wants to do is difficult -- with the right puppy.
 
#17 ·
Thank you for your advice. We spoke to the breeder and are bringing her back saturday morning. It still really breaks my heart since I did have a click with her. But I know it's a bad idea to keep her. She already started barking at dogs that walked away when she was on the lead. Kinda like she thought she was chasing them away, I don't really think that's normal behaviour.
I want the puppy to be happy too, I can't give her the care to get her over her trauma. It would be unfair for me and unfair for the puppy.
It was not the mum who bit her btw, it was a different dog.
I do think the pup will be okay, her jaw has healed and I'm not worried about her physically, only mentally. Except for her potential to be aggressive towards dogs, she's a great puppy. I think if she finds the right handler to deal with her fear she could grow into a wonderful dog. But that handler is not me, I accept that.
Thanks again for your feedback.
 
#18 ·
For what's it's worth, I think you are doing the right thing. It is enough for someone your age to deal with the training and energy of a large breed puppy without adding on a factor like this. And I do know what I am talking about because Newlie is dog reactive. Not to all dogs, but some, and there is no predicting which ones. He is good with people, trustworthy with children, and I love him dearly, but it is a problem.

I have to build up my nerve to even take Newlie for a walk because I am always afraid that somehow he will get away from me and hurt another dog. I have to be constantly vigilant when I take him anywhere, to the vet, to go swimming, etc, and when I take him to a kennel, I have to impress on the staff to be careful about him around other dogs, not just once, but every time I board him. It is very wearing, that constant responsibility. I have had my boy for 5 years and he will always have a home with me, but I will not knowingly take on another dog with this issue.

Several years ago, Newlie came close to killing a little 10 pound dog next door who kept yapping at him. They got into it underneath the chain link fence in our yard. I was sick over it. I also paid half the medical bills ($1300) and put up a privacy fence (around another $1,300) on that side to make sure it didn't happen again.

No, at 16, you do not need this.
 
#19 · (Edited)
In the Netherlands you should have access to some very nice workingline dogs. Can you join a club (I think there are a lot there) and visit/talk with folks who work their dogs?. A working line puppy can be a lot of work but you already have some experience and they could help you find one with the right temperament for your experience as there is a range in any litter. They can be a little more "bitey" as puppies but a dog with a solid temperament, even one bred to bite can be safer than a dog with fear issues.

I would also not rule out an older puppy who may not be what they want for sport or police service work but could make a fine pet. As you know from raising a guide dog puppy, not every puppy "makes the cut"- and goes a different way.
 
#20 ·
There aren't a lot of clubs here, can't find any specialized in working lines actually.
I have found a breeder that seems very good, but after my last experience I'm not very sure what breeder to trust anymore. She was very nice, told me that her pups were from a very good sire (Vucan von peroh). I'm planning to visit to meet the mother, the breeder and the pups ofcourse.
The only thing I worry about (sorry if I'm wrong, I don't have any experience with this) is that because both the dams and the sires lines nearly all have ipo 3 and shutzhund 3. Does that mean they'll have a higher potential for aggression? And will a high prey drive make it more likely that he/she will attack or chase smaller dogs? I have an old peoples home across the street so this area is infested with shih tzus and chihuahuas, so it wouldn't be ideal to get a dog that's likely to harm small dogs.
 
#45 ·
I did not realize you were in the Netherlands!!!! Missed it but picked it up from another post...

In every litter there are pups just as suitable for pet homes as for working homes.....I have/have had dogs with some of these lines.....if you let the breeder guide you to a lower drive puppy in this litter, I believe you can get a nice companion dog.....frankly, a few of these lines are not as successful in producing high drive consistently and I think there will be a nice spread in the litter of high to lower drives.

https://us.working-dog.com/breed/Van-het-Cranenbos-111185

I think this will be a much more suitable puppy for you. Please keep posting and let us know if you get a puppy and how you and puppy do in the future!!!


Lee
 
#21 ·
It wasn't the dam. So this breeder has baby puppies in an area with unrestricted access to other females? That's pretty crazy too. Sorry, but bitches with pups can be quite, uhm, bitchy, and rightfully so. It is the job of the breeder to keep the environment safe for her and her puppies, because a nervous bitch will effect the puppies. Having other bitches with access to the puppies is a stressor that should not exist.

Glad you are taking the puppy back. The breeder ought to have her head examined. Too many people forget that they own dogs, not little furry humans.
 
#23 ·
I would not worry at all about dogs coming from stock where parents are both titles to IPO3 or SCH3 level. I do not do dog sport (do search and rescue) and hope someone else picks up but I believe these tests are more about obedience and stability of the dog than uncontrolled prey drives.

Here is the pedigree for that dog for those more familiar with the lines. Does she have the pedigree of the dam? Some folks could help evaluate to give you potential things to ask about and look for.

Vucan von Peroh
 
#25 ·
What I would do is take the links you have and go onto bloodlines and pedigrees section of forum and mention you are thinking of a puppy from this breeding, talk about how much experience you have, what you plan to do with the dog, your concerns, what your are looking for and ask what kind of thoughts they have on the breeding and what to look for/ask about with the breeder.
 
#26 ·
Schutzhund is not about training the dog to bite or protection. It is about obedience and control of the dog, and the dog working as a team with it's handler. Getting to bite is the reward.

As with either line - show or working, you can get extremely high drive dogs, medium drive and low drive dogs in the same litter.

The key is finding a breeder who knows the difference, and who picks the puppy to match the owner's goals. It would be a horrible idea to allow a companion puppy buyer to choose the highest drive puppy in the litter. Both would end up frustrated and lots of problems.

The reason it is important to see those titles all throughout the pedigree is that it is/was used as a breed worthiness test. A dog must have good stable nerves, a solid temperament, nice drives, and a willingness to work with its handler. All things that you would want, even in a companion puppy. If they don't have SchH or IPO titles, what other titles do they have. Not everyone has the availability to club and helper access to do the training. If they don't, what other things are they doing with their dogs so that they know the dog has everything necessary before breeding.

I know it's a lot to think about, but it looks like you are giving some good thought to your future puppy. Good Luck!!
 
#29 ·
That is correct Sunsilver, my breeder is quite involved with it and I believe was one of the founding members.

I personally believe the whites have something great to offer the other show line dogs and that is more moderate conformation, as most of them don't suffer from the extremes found in the two color show lines.

But let's be honest, if my dog had both his nuts and continues on as well as he has been a proves himself worthy of being bred, what reputable black and tan breeder would let me use him with one of their dogs? Probably none. so let's not blame the white breeders like they are the cabuse of the problem.
 
#30 ·
Honestly, I am not seeing any "white bashing" at all.
I think the statements made were limited and - and pointed out problems with limited gene pool. You would hear the same concerns on any dog, regardless, of line bred for color or coat length.

That said the OP indicated up front that she got the white puppy only because of her mother and that she wanted a more conventional shepherd and is rethinking now that she is returning the puppy. She located a breeder who seems to have some very nice working lines (though I am not a pedigree expert)

Where is the problem?
 
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#33 ·
Based on what I have read, I am not sure it is fair to said that a Swiss shepherd is the exact same thing as a German shepherd. Swiss had their own "breed" recognized that they adhere to where white GSDS are just able to be registered by some registries like AKC. They definitely have a different look than a white GSD. I have heard temperament differences from people across the board about the Swiss and to a lesser degree the whites, and I do NOT think saying it's the exact same thing as the working line GSD they are apparently looking at now is correct

As for the small gene pool, I have two things to say: 1, I have heard people say that while it is smaller than that of the color shepherds, it is big enough to suffice.

and 2, how small is the gene pool for the wgsl dogs these days? Are the wgsl people not also totally breeding for one single color and shrinking their gene pool to nothing? This is being discussed on another thread right now.

and 3, what is the most reasonable solution? Selzer you thought you saw a correlation between UKC welcoming the whites and an jmprovement in the quality of the dogs. Saying "you guys aren't allowed to play here" doesn't improve anything!! Now selzer this isn't directed at you because obviously you don't make these rules.

Lastly, selzer, your position that the whites have such a small gene pool as to be consistently poorer in all areas...well...that's a pretty big blanket statement directed at a lot of dogs and breeders. I guess I feel that unless you have been out there being involved with good white breeders and seeing first hand what they are producing, then don't speculate and say they are all consistently poorer.

For the record, as I have said before, in my dream world some of the best whites would be bred back into the color dogs and vise versa. I think all of us staying segregated by type or color is beyond silly. but I don't make the rules either so here we are.
 
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