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Had to send pup back to breeder, not a good match at all

28K views 322 replies 38 participants last post by  lhczth 
#1 ·
It has been a while since I have posted because the past few months have been a challenge.

After many years of not having a dog I finally got a beautiful gsl puppy. I had told the breeder what kind of temperament I needed and for what purposes I wanted to have her, namely pet, show and therapy dog, and able to go on trail/beachrides with my horse and me. I wanted a dog that I could take pretty much everywhere with me. I was told that she had a wonderful temperament and so the transaction took place and she was shipped to me. She was 11 weeks old when I got her.
The very first sign that I had gotten more than I had bargained for was when I snapped the leash on her at the airport and she pulled very hard against the collar to the point where she was sounding like she was strangling herself. It did not take long after I brought her home that she was, without any provocation, starting to lunge at my arms and lets, biting and tearing my clothing.
From day one I wasted no time in doing obedience training with her
A few days after she arrived we went for a walk along the river where there were other people with dogs. Most of them she was happy to see but every so often she would see one and come totally unglued, lunging at them like an angry dog on a chain. I had never seen a pup as young as her behave like that. I spoke with numerous trainers and tried all sorts of advice to curb this behavior and nothing was making an impression on her. By 14 weeks I had to buy a prong collar, something I had never needed for any of my dogs in the past.
Several weeks later we started puppy kindergarten and you can imagine how I felt when this 15 week old puppy was lunging and snarling at all the other little puppies.
At home things weren't good either with her chasing cats, cornering and nearly killing my parrot, wanting to chase buses, slamming against bird cages and glass sliding doors. I was afraid that one day she would come crashing through the glass. I could go on and on. In the mean time I trained her daily, went to classes, met with private trainers who dealt with difficult shepherds. I took her as many places as I possible could and even though she knew heel, sit, stay etc, she would get so excited that she would refuse to listen. It was even recommended that I not enter her in any shows because of her behavior.
My 16 year old daughter and my husband were both afraid of her.
The last straw was right before Christmas. She was outside and saw one of my cats through the sliding glass door. Once again she threw herself at the door and when I opened it to correct her, she pushed past me and in a deaf frenzy chased the cat down the stairs. Downstairs was my husband who had just had surgery on his leg. The pup went racing into his office and nearly knocked him over. It was at that point that I knew that she had to go. So at 7 months old I sent her back to the breeder. Sure there was a chance that she would have outgrown it as she matured but I have children, grandchildren, cats, horses, neighbors etc. that were at risk of being bitten in the meantime.
Even though I had several people here who would have gladly paid me more than I had paid for her because she will make and excellent schutzhund dog, I honored the contract and gave the breeder first right of refusal. They knew that she will do well in the sport and did not hesitate to take her back.
So here I sit, licking my wounds so to speak and should probably get myself and Elizabethan collar before I lick myself raw. I have spoken with the trainers that I had worked with and they all agree that even though her temperament was over the top for an amateur like me, that I didn't do anything wrong and had actually done a pretty good job of training her.
I am looking for another pup but am not going to rush into it. I know what I want but finding it might be hard but this time when I do I will go myself to pick out the right pup for me. I'm thinking that the best thing for me would be an asl/gsl cross. I want one out of parents who are titled in show and obedience. OFA and dm tested a must and of course a sweet stable temperament that can and will go just about anywhere with me. I want one that I will be able to show in conformation and hopefully even campaign. Most importantly I need a dog who will be safe around my grandbabies.
 
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#5 ·
I have bred and raised german shepherds before and never experienced this kind of behavior. I trained my first dog when I was 16 and did agility work with her. I put my first obedience title on a gsd when I was 19.
I took her home to visit my mother who has had several gsl dogs including an import who became regional siegerin and she too had never seen a pup with as high a drive before. This puppy just was the wrong one for my family and situation and there is nothing wrong with admitting it and finding one that is a better fit. Had my family circumstances been different or if it had been just me, I would have kept her and gotten her the training that she needed, but with little people visiting and other smaller animals living in our home I needed to put their safety first.
 
#3 ·
Caroline5, it sounds like you did all anyone could ask of you. As you said, she was just too much puppy for you at this stage. You honored your breeder's contract for which you should be complimented for. Take some down time and heal and then start your search again. I would look into breeders who do show and obedience and I'd weigh the obedience more than the showing, especially if you have never shown before. Sorry it didn't work out for you and thank you for all your patience and the work you put in trying to make it work.
 
#6 ·
Thank you for your kind words.

Actually I have bred and shown before. I delivered my first litter (on my own at that) when I was 20. Out of that litter we were blessed with an amazing boy named Arro who was a multi BIS BISS winner and titled in obedience too. Arro was a great dog that could be taken everywhere and be with everyone.
I'm posting a photo of Arro, albeit not a good one but that win was amazing and such an honour when Mr Maxwell Riddle said he had only ever seen one other dog of his quality and that was Manhattan who he had put best in show at Westminster.
So what ever pup I get has big shoes to fill.
 

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#4 ·
IMHO you have handled the situation perfectly. You pulled out all the stops and tried every avenue you could. It's not an easy decision to make to return something you have put so much time and effort into. But the tag line of your thread explains it all. The dog wasn't a good match, it happens, you did your best, you are doing what's right for your family/home/other pets. That you are humble enough to admit this is commendable.
Hugs. And best of luck finding another pup in the future. <3
 
#11 ·
No way would I go for any kind of cross type - too many variables. You really cannot know what to expect.

Unfortunately, many sport breeders look for drive drive drive drive. All the "names" to hit in the pedigree....all the trial results .....more important than understanding and knowing the pedigree. Everyone knows the right words and phrases to promote dogs, but it is just PR and rhetoric...not real understanding.

Lee
 
#13 ·
I am not blaming the breeder and the person who recommended the litter to me is extremely knowledgable about the breed and highly respected in the schutzhund community. My guess is that after she left the litter she "found herself" as sometimes happens and realized that she liked being alpha. She is a great dog and will do great in schutzhund. I am not knocking her or the breeder, she was just not right for my situation.
 
#12 ·
She doesn't sound too over the top to me. When you gave her up she was an adolescent and they can be airheads. I think you gave it enough time and I commend you for choosing sanity over a crisis for the dog and you. I hope you do realize that every GSD can be like this. You can't see it when you look at these cute fur balls in the litter. Check out the parents and their lines. I know you probably know that already. Grand babies and GSD pups are a tough combination. Have you looked into Collies?
 
#14 ·
Ah but you never saw her in person so are not able to judge what her behavior was like. I had her evaluated by numerous people and they all said the same thing, that her behavior was extreme. My friend has puppies similar in age and they behave nothing like she did. Plus this friend has bred many litters over the past 45 years and she could not believe how high her prey drive and how alpha she was.
 
#16 ·
Ok, I want to say something that I feel is extremely important.
The thing that I would like people to take from my experience is that it is ok to admit when a particular dog is to much. If more people did that then there would be fewer headlines screaming about a child being mauled by an out of control dog.
The right gsd is out there for me and for my family. In time I will find him/her.
 
#21 ·
It's difficult to come out and face nay-sayers on this forum, so kudos to you. Only you know how this pup was, and whether things could change for the better. I think your Arro was beautiful, good luck to you in the future finding the right dog for you.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I have found from experience you can't assume any puppy will become a good therapy dog. If you really want one, get an older dog. Your dog Arro looks like an American line dog. The puppy you returned sounds like a Working line. Breeders sometimes make mistakes but a good breeder should know by 7 weeks what a dog's temperament is going to be. It's too bad this ever happened. The breeder should know enough to make a good match in the first place. I don't see anything wrong with returning the dog. I probably would have done it right away before getting attached, so the dog could be with someone who needs that kind of energy.
 
#26 ·
Very true and had she not been a good therapy dog that would have been ok, so long as she was a good family pet. But her temperament was beyond either one of those.

As for sending her back sooner, you are right, I should have, but there is this big thing called pride that got in the way and the determination to not give up and to do all that I could to make it work.
 
#24 ·
One more thing, I would insist on meeting the parents of a puppy before buying. Then you will have a better idea of what the puppy will be like. I just saw the puppy was shipped to you. I wouldn't have the dog I have now if I hadn't met the parents first.

I agree with the post that said crossing lines is an unknown. You could get the worst of both lines, not the best.
 
#25 ·
You are obviously an experienced GSD owner. So you knew what to do. I agree, it is hard to predict a pup, they are definitely a crap shoot.

That being said, there are certainly breeders out there who have just the temperament that you are looking for. Will the pup turn out to be a champion in the show ring? Iffy at best. But I'm quite sure you can have a good shot at working with a pup more suited to companion role. Good luck!
 
#28 ·
Nothing wrong with returning a pup that isn't a good fit. Especially when kids are involved.

A good IPO dog does not have to be over-the-top but I have seen that happen fairly often. It seems people who like this kind of dog for sport often keep the dogs as kennel dogs anyway, so they don't have the same expectations or issues as people who keep their dogs as companions.

Maybe you could find a pup with similar lines to your first GSD. I know my American-line type GSD would be a nice fit for your situation, and totally trustworthy with little ones, so they are certainly out there. I'd even consider looking for a young adult from a rescue organization.
 
#29 ·
Your Wgsl pup was gorgeous I remember when your getting your pup from the airport. Gsd Pups can be tons of work and I know some are more work the others and there is a range of intensity depending on the personality of the pup. you can a very intense pup from any line. I also recommend getting an adult it can guarantees the temperament you are looking for. Sorry it didn't work out I'm sure it was a very hard decision - it doesn't always work out - wishing you the best in your searc.
 
#33 ·
Actually with having cats I have found that getting a pup would be better. That way the cats are able to knock some respect into the pup. Two of our cats were very tolerant with her inspite of her disrespectful behavior. They would stand their ground and swat at her but never hurt her. My third cat was afraid of her and would run as soon as he saw her.
Plus, even though my kids are nearly 17 and adults they would still like the fun of having a rolly poly puppy with puppy breath etc.
 

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#34 ·
Puppies can change once they leave the litter. They can change from 7 weeks to 12 weeks when their drives start to wake up. Breeders need to know the lines they are working with and hopefully know when this might happen in a pup. You did what was best for you and the pup. As a breeder it can be frustrating, but far better to get a pup back than have it and the owner miserable.

As far as lines, there are laid back easy to handle WL just like their are ASL and GSL that have very good levels of drive and energy. I have a male pup in my current litter that is a dream to live with. Rock solid, not crazy over the top in drive. Some people would look at the pedigree and think "crazy sport lines", but I know the sire, some of his kids, the mother, her mother, her grandmother, her sire, the sire of the mother, etc. No surprise to me. :)

Where abouts are you located (general area)? We might be able to give you some suggestions for breeders.
 
#38 ·
Puppies can change once they leave the litter. They can change from 7 weeks to 12 weeks when their drives start to wake up. Breeders need to know the lines they are working with and hopefully know when this might happen in a pup. You did what was best for you and the pup. As a breeder it can be frustrating, but far better to get a pup back than have it and the owner miserable.

As far as lines, there are laid back easy to handle WL just like their are ASL and GSL that have very good levels of drive and energy. I have a male pup in my current litter that is a dream to live with. Rock solid, not crazy over the top in drive. Some people would look at the pedigree and think "crazy sport lines", but I know the sire, some of his kids, the mother, her mother, her grandmother, her sire, the sire of the mother, etc. No surprise to me.


Where abouts are you located (general area)? We might be able to give you some suggestions for breeders.
Aria is german showlines.
I am in the Pacific Northwest but would travel for the right puppy.
 
#35 ·
Aww the "OP" made the right choice for them! Too much "puppy!" The "puppy" sounds pretty normal to me also but I think the cat/puppy thing most likely made everything worst??

Cat owners tend to be "particulalyr" sensitive to "issues" as I've seen?? The clueless tend to go for the ... "well hope it work out thing??" And the particularly sensitive go for the this puppy/dog is outa here! If an owner is "expecting" little to no issues in that regard and the dog/puppy has "issues" that dog/puppy is "done!"

The puppy sounds pretty normal to me??? But ... as described ... if "therapy" dog was also in the future ... yeah that one sounds like a "pretty poor prospect??" A theory dog that is taught to "tolerate" people. Does not seem to be the way to go?? So yeah not a good match.

As I have come to understand there are "breeders" that do produce "WL" puppies that can act as service/therapy dogs?? News to me but I have seen them?? OP "if" you want to try again ... it seems like "lhczth" and I will add "Fodder" most likely know who those "Breeders" are???

Sorry it did not work out. :(
 
#37 ·
Aww the "OP" made the right choice for them! Too much "puppy!" The "puppy" sounds pretty normal to me also but I think the cat/puppy thing most likely made everything worst??

Cat owners tend to be "particulalyr" sensitive to "issues" as I've seen?? The clueless tend to go for the ... "well hope it work out thing??" And the particularly sensitive go for the this puppy/dog is outa here! If an owner is "expecting" little to no issues in that regard and the dog/puppy has "issues" that dog/puppy is "done!"

The puppy sounds pretty normal to me??? But ... as described ... if "therapy" dog was also in the future ... yeah that one sounds like a "pretty poor prospect??" A theory dog that is taught to "tolerate" people. Does not seem to be the way to go?? So yeah not a good match.

As I have come to understand there are "breeders" that do produce "WL" puppies that can act as service/therapy dogs?? News to me but I have seen them?? OP "if" you want to try again ... it seems like "lhczth" and I will add "Fodder" most likely know who those "Breeders" are???

Sorry it did not work out.
Actually, there has never been a time when I didn't have a gsd without a cat. My friends even called me "the dog lady". We never had any issues between our cats and our dogs and there were times when we had several dogs plus puppies all living in the house.
As for normal puppy behavior, without you having seen her there is no way you can say that. Normal perhaps if she were a malanois with high prey drive. I has her evaluated by 4 professional trainers who have trained for the police, military and schutzhund, plus by a gsd breeder with 45 years experience breeding and training. They all said the exact same thing, her drive was very high, two of them would have loved to have bought her because they knew that she had the potential for doing very well in schutzhund.
She isn't working line she is actually german showlines. Her sire has produced hundreds of puppies including some that are gentle as lambs.
 
#36 ·
Yes - there are GSD working line dogs who ARE therapy dogs....Marsha Seck of traumwolfen in Nebraska has several females who are AKC titled Therapy Dogs....even a mother - daughter combo. The one female has a litter right now and knowing the parents, having spent time with the dam and having lived with the sire, I know that these definitely have the potential to be great companion dogs and do therapy as well.


Lee
 
#39 ·
For people saying that the puppy's behavior is "normal," that may be true for some puppies, but obviously not for the puppy that you were expecting.

I think it's great that you gave yourself and the puppy the best chances for success in the future. Keep your head up, you will find the perfect puppy for you!
 
#48 ·
When their desire to chase, bite, kill (small animals or chase game), react over rides their ability to listen and hear commands or to settle and live in a normal household. That is the best I can come up with. :)
 
#52 ·
Just want to say that I'm sorry it didn't work out for you and this pup. I know it was a hard decision for you to make, but it sounds like the best decision for both the pup and your family.

Best of luck in your search for the 'right' pup. Looking forward to the day you have new pictures to post.
 
#58 ·
Caroline, I have given up dogs too, for various reasons, many were fosters. Even re-homing fosters has been tough. I have never taken that lightly and it took me a long time before making a decision to do it and I have made sure they went to a safe and trusting home. After they left I always second guessed myself, even though I knew it was the right decision at the time. It takes some time to get really over it and you need some time to grieve the dog you wish you would have had. You learned a valuable lesson and the pup is safe. The breeder has much more information now about her so the next owner will be prepared. Take a breather and enjoy your peace for now.
 
#60 ·
Actually Aria won't be going anywhere except to Germany for IPO training when she is older. She is back home to stay with her mother and her siblings.
When they reintroduced Aria and Isa, her mother, who is smaller than Aria, Isa made it very clear who was boss and took Aria down several rungs on the ladder. Aria, who was always trying to be alpha was down on the ground begging for mercy, lol.

She has a lot of respect for the breeder and he has little trouble with her. His wife is still working on it.
 
#59 ·
I agree it was best to return the pup to the breeder - most showline breeders will be happy to have a pup with this much drive for their programs. This one sounds like she had your number quickly :) :) and played you as evidenced by the responses dependent on what equipment she wore....a pup who had her own agenda rather than wanting to please you is going to be harder to train and live with and a project for someone who wants a dog with this drive more for competition or some suitable work.

There are both showline and working line breeders who can and do produce a dog who will suit you......sifting through the sought after qualities, which is rhetoric which everyone knows and uses is the tough part.


Lee
 
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#82 ·
I agree it was best to return the pup to the breeder - most showline breeders will be happy to have a pup with this much drive for their programs. This one sounds like she had your number quickly
and played you as evidenced by the responses dependent on what equipment she wore....a pup who had her own agenda rather than wanting to please you is going to be harder to train and live with and a project for someone who wants a dog with this drive more for competition or some suitable work.

There are both showline and working line breeders who can and do produce a dog who will suit you......sifting through the sought after qualities, which is rhetoric which everyone knows and uses is the tough part.


Lee
Exactly on all that you said. She had her own adjenda from day one and it did not include being a family pet.
 
#61 ·
And 24 hours later ..."Spooky" came out of hiding the dog saw her and laid down and "Spooky" proceeded to head butt her??? I was stunned???


Chip, you were very lucky. Drive can overcome training in a heartbeat. Had you had that Pit for longer you might have lost a cat or had one seriously hurt. I'm sorry, but 24 hours and hanging a dog twice won't stop a dog from chasing and catching if one of your cats had ran past it. And killing it if that's what it's going to do with a 'catch'.
 
#62 ·
Which is why I just could not take that chance. Our cats and parrot are family. We have had all of them since they were about 9 weeks old, I even handraised my parrot and she caught and would have killed him had I not gotten there in time.
 

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#68 ·
Wow, people sure do like to criticize, don't they? Just wanted to thank you for the post. You were right to return the pup. Let me tell you what you saved yourself from.

Eight years ago We stubbornly chose to hold on to our pup, who behaved exactly as you described. In fact, the details match so closely, it's eerie! We loved him dearly, and our EXHAUSTIVE work eventually yielded a loving boy we were devoted to. But...it was a full-time job for the first 4 years, and I ended up with permanent shoulder damage. People with lots of GSD experience told us his behavior was unusual.

And before the judgemental folks chime in with your second-guessing, let me make it clear that we worked with him EVERY day, gave him LOTS of exercise, play, and mental/social stimulation, were never harsh or punitive, but neither were we pushovers. We devoted ourselves full-time to addressing his issues. Hired lots of professionals. Worked our butts off. Never gave up on him. But just because we did that, doesn't mean it was the smartest thing to do! And it leaves me with empathy for someone who made the other choice- not an excuse to judge them.

We just lost our boy to a sudden illness, and I am grieving. In a strange way, the trials I endured with him were the making of me. I learned how to access levels of inner strength I didn't know I had. So I will always love him. BUT...I would not put myself through that again. It simply shouldn't be that hard. If it is, there's something wrong.

It wasn't your fault that pup wasn't the pup for you. Kudos for having the good sense to address the issue in the way that was right for you and your family.
 
#86 ·
I can count on one hand the number of times that my dog bit me as a puppy, and that includes accidental nipping. She has never been a mouthy dog, and was never a big chewer. It's a pretty wide generalization to say that all puppies are going to behave like the OP's did, and that she just didn't want to put the work in. It simply isn't true. The OP already has experience with GSDs, and had the puppy evaluated by multiple people, which leads me to believe that she is telling the truth when she says that the puppy was displaying a much higher than average drive.
 
#89 ·
Here is what I hope people take from this experience. If the puppy isn't the right one for you, take it back and find the one that is. By keeping it nobody wins, not the dog, not the person or animal who gets bitten and not the owner with the lawsuit against them. There are lots of dogs out there and somewhere there is one for everyone.
I don't need a dog who when my husband would come upstairs to go to bed and see she was still out, would turn around and go sleep downstairs in his office because he didn't want to be jumped on and chewed on. Or a daughter who when she saw her would lean back against the wall with a sick look on her face because she didn't want to deal with her over exuberance.
Speaking of my daughter, it broke my heart when I told her that Aria was gone and she let out a moan because she thought I has sent Aria back because she was unable to deal with her. My daughter is looking forward to starting out with a puppy who is a much better fit for us.
 
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