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Working line as Family Dog

15K views 53 replies 27 participants last post by  carmspack 
#1 ·
I've read a lot of comments lately in regards to working line GSDs being for "more experienced" homes, or people saying they didn't think they could handle a working line, so they went with a showline, that working lines are "crazy" or "super hyper" or "biting machines"....This blog/article is an oldie, but a goodie, and addresses some of the fears I've read and heard, as well as what a good working line breeder is working towards.

Not a showline vs working line debate, only stating that both can make excellent family pets, and working lines don't HAVE to be in SchH, protection, KNPV, SAR, LE, military etc... To be fulfilled and happy, nor do they need some world class handler to own them to "handle" them. I'm sure many have read this already, just thought I'd post it because of some of the fear/intimidation I've seen from pet people considering working lines. If I wouldn't recommend a well bred GSD to someone, I probably wouldn't recommend a dog at all.


Working German Shepherds as Pets and Companions
 
#4 ·
To a certain extent the argument is there because of a level of elitism. Oh this dog needs a strong experienced handler because otherwise it would level your house. This of course implies the person saying it is exactly that. Between common sense management and training the pup to be calm and providing mental stim and exercise it isnt that bad.
 
#5 ·
I've got a 9 month old working line puppy in a pet home and he's been a breeze so far. Still pretty young, but I feel I have a pretty good grasp on his temperament.

I think anyone with the basics on how to raise and train a puppy would be able to handle him. I actually found him easier than previous dogs at his age.

A well bred and balanced dog, that is eager and quick to learn, and bonds with their family should be ideal for the family situation.
 
#20 ·
I've got a 9 month old working line puppy in a pet home and he's been a breeze so far. Still pretty young, but I feel I have a pretty good grasp on his temperament.

I think anyone with the basics on how to raise and train a puppy would be able to handle him. I actually found him easier than previous dogs at his age.

A well bred and balanced dog, that is eager and quick to learn, and bonds with their family should be ideal for the family situation.
Agreed, I also have working line 13 month old puppy and she is great, yes there need more stimuli and love to "work", they are smart and willing to do anthing for interaction. No issue with damage to house, the only issues we had was toilet paper all over the house (2 months old), chew quietly subwoofer cable and nible on shoes of someone who came for visit.
All we do is to provide both physical and mental excercise everyday.
 
#19 ·
DaniFani,

Back to your question.
My girls just over a year old now and from an amazing West German pedigree of working GSD's.

Sweet as the day is long without giving up her independence or desire to play, prey drive, protect etc. My 13 and 14 year old nieces are adored by her and my three smaller dogs never have had anything but a bond with her.

That being said her breeding shows when I work her on a small bite sleeve. And I do this for confidence and fun, not planning to have her in SCH etc. She has a wicked bite and loves to play fight. Obedience training and learning their roll is important from an early age in my opinion.

If you wanna have a look at her pedigree msg me.
I would not hesitate to say YES they make great house dogs but require attention for their active minds.
 
#23 ·
I had my dog for 15 years till he finally passed away last month. I only knew him as a German Shepherd and nothing else. It never occur to me to look up more info on him until he passed away. My father had got him back in 1999. After some research I found out he was a working line GS. I would describe my dog as protective, active, loyal and playful. From the time he was a puppy till the age of 12 he would be running all over the yard. I would do things with him like wrestle (lol), take him for jogs and he was always up for the challenge. My nephews ages 4-7 would come over and play with him, no issues. When strangers approached at night he would bark. He was a great dog in every aspect.
 
#24 · (Edited)
German Shepherds shed a lot and are too much work...

As luck would have it...I just got a text for another owner surrender WL sable puppy needing a home from our local rescue. We're starting to see more and more WL GSDs in the shelters. On our local FB pet page there's a daily parade of dogs of all breeds "don't have time", "sudden alleries", "too rough with the kids" and lot of these are just lab mixes with some energy.

Admittedly I'm leaning to a cynical side here but maybe it would be a good thing for the *general* public to think working lines are too much dog....because for a lot of people anything with fur, four paws and a mind of it's own is too much.

IF someone asks what kind of dogs I like it's beagles or bassetts depending on how much energy they (the people) have.....:crazy:
;)

(btw congrats on the new puppy!!! So jealous, I've seen the pics and some videos you posted LOVE him. :) )


<snipped>

Not a showline vs working line debate, only stating that both can make excellent family pets, and working lines don't HAVE to be in SchH, protection, KNPV, SAR, LE, military etc... To be fulfilled and happy, nor do they need some world class handler to own them to "handle" them. I'm sure many have read this already, just thought I'd post it because of some of the fear/intimidation I've seen from pet people considering working lines. If I wouldn't recommend a well bred GSD to someone, I probably wouldn't recommend a dog at all.


Working German Shepherds as Pets and Companions
 
#25 ·
As luck would have it...I just got a text for another owner surrender WL sable puppy needing a home from our local rescue. We're starting to see more and more WL GSDs in the shelters...
That's how I got my sable pup, owner surrender on Craigslist. I wonder if the "rarer" and unique look of some of the WL colors are becoming more appealing to backyard breeders because they can try and sell them for more, or lend credibility to their operation. Not saying all rescue WL dogs are byb, but I'd imagine that people who do their research and buy a pricey pup from a truly reputable breeder are less likely to just rehome them when they get too energetic.
 
#28 ·
I know we like to jump on BYB for this, but it happens to the best most reputable breeders as well. They sell a dog to someone that does their research, thinks they want a WL, and don’t realize what they get themselves into. I’ve seen a lot of returned dogs because a person had plans to work the dog in Schutzhund, or agility, or some other dog sport and then either something came up in life or they actually got into the sport and realized how much time it takes and just give up. They let obedience or manners slip for a little bit (usually within the first few months) and then they end up with a poorly trained, no manners, WL GSD that runs the house.

And no…it’s not about having an off-switch. Even dogs with an off-switch need to do something with themselves at least once in a while.

Too many times I’ve spoken to some very good breeder friends who say that someone is interested in Schutzhund or some other sport, so they end up giving them a puppy that is in the upper half of drive in the litter and then the person ends up not doing it and not knowing what to do with the dog. Many of them will admit that 95% of their dogs go to “pet homes.” Pet homes that might dabble in a sport, but not really compete or train in the way that many of us do (at least once a week). Sometimes, placing those higher drive dogs is very very difficult because you just don’t know people. I know someone that just had seven pups, at least five have gone to homes where the breeder has known the people for years through various clubs. How often does that happen? Probably very rarely.

I just think about all the things I do with my dog…training 2 or 3 times a week, trialing certain weekends. If I had a kid, that would quickly get cut down because the kid is going to need to be going to things throughout the week, money will need to be spent on that rather than dog training.
 
#30 ·
OK but that's shoving some angels on a head of pin....

The Core drivers: You take misinformation *see David Taggert's post* you mix in lack of research, BYBs who push that misinformation and the fact the majority of the pet owning public are not dog nerds (like most of us on this site are) and you've got problems.

Truly reputable breeders know what they are breeding, screen buyers, offer support and will take a pup back if it does not work out with the family. One of the local BYBs I was talking to sells his pups for around $300-$400. He has people driving from out of state to see his puppies and they aren't even OFA'd. His females come from a long line of CKC dogs with nothing but names on the pedigree, no kennel titles or work. A reputable breeder is going to charge more and the clients who spend more will most likely be more invested in the puppy in more then just goals.....

So it follows that we're going to see far fewer WLs in shelters from reputable breeders (given that no one, no situation is ever perfect all the time) BUT looking at it from a macro perspective, yes BYBs (and who knows maybe puppy millers will/be are jumping on the WL band wagon) are a big part of the problem.


I know we like to jump on BYB for this, but it happens to the best most reputable breeders as well. They sell a dog to someone that does their research, thinks they want a WL, and don’t realize what they get themselves into. I’ve seen a lot of returned dogs because a person had plans to work the dog in Schutzhund, or agility, or some other dog sport and then either something came up in life or they actually got into the sport and realized how much time it takes and just give up. They let obedience or manners slip for a little bit (usually within the first few months) and then they end up with a poorly trained, no manners, WL GSD that runs the house.

And no…it’s not about having an off-switch. Even dogs with an off-switch need to do something with themselves at least once in a while.

Too many times I’ve spoken to some very good breeder friends who say that someone is interested in Schutzhund or some other sport, so they end up giving them a puppy that is in the upper half of drive in the litter and then the person ends up not doing it and not knowing what to do with the dog. Many of them will admit that 95% of their dogs go to “pet homes.” Pet homes that might dabble in a sport, but not really compete or train in the way that many of us do (at least once a week). Sometimes, placing those higher drive dogs is very very difficult because you just don’t know people. I know someone that just had seven pups, at least five have gone to homes where the breeder has known the people for years through various clubs. How often does that happen? Probably very rarely.

I just think about all the things I do with my dog…training 2 or 3 times a week, trialing certain weekends. If I had a kid, that would quickly get cut down because the kid is going to need to be going to things throughout the week, money will need to be spent on that rather than dog training.
 
#32 ·
Gwenhwyfair; said:
I just got off the phone with my friend about the latest WL rescue and they can be hard to place too. Serious WL people usually want to get a pup from a good breeder and start the foundation training to compete. The fuzzy pink slipper crowd that wants a Golden with a GSD coat aren't always a good fit because they don't want to invest the time and energy into training and exercise needed.

So they can be hard to place...not impossible...but finding the right family is harder.

I just had a former teamate(she is still on the team, I not) that washed a well bred bought male and found a rescue for SAR. I think most rescues would be surprised to find SAR people open to a rescue. Most if us are not wealthy, and most if us do it for the love of doing it and don't care where the dog came from, as long as it works.

Just saying. Not trying to derail the thread, but if a rescue gets a nice, young(under 2) WL dog, it would behoove them to get the word out to SAR agencies.

Ok thread, back on track.


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#33 · (Edited)
The dog that is in rescue is a 7-8 month old male!

Owners said he is working line and the rescue may be able to get his pedigree to confirm.....if you have anyone who may be interested I'll be happy to get contact information and PM it to you. :)

My friend groomed him for the rescue and said he was sweet and enjoyed the attention.



I just had a former teamate(she is still on the team, I not) that washed a well bred bought male and found a rescue for SAR. I think most rescues would be surprised to find SAR people open to a rescue. Most if us are not wealthy, and most if us do it for the love of doing it and don't care where the dog came from, as long as it works.

Just saying. Not trying to derail the thread, but if a rescue gets a nice, young(under 2) WL dog, it would behoove them to get the word out to SAR agencies.

Ok thread, back on track.


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#35 ·
By SE, do you mean Arizona and the like? Let me see who I can find. I would also encourage them to look at some if the resources online for "testing" a SAR dogs potential. Hunt, ball, social, pushy, work ethic, so they have a better idea what to tell a potential handler.


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#39 ·
Does this issue not also come down to breeders and producing balanced, sane, dogs?
Is that were the BYB argument comes in...so it comes back to buyer beware and learning what you are buying and understanding what that entails. I don't think stupid buyers is something that anyone can stop and I seriously doubt any of those people are here. There will always be people who peddle puppies for money, don't care about the breed at all or what they put out there, and there will always be people with too much money to burn who want a certain looking dog.

Admittedly Im new, limited experience but most of the WL dogs Ive 'heard' of that were unmanageable or had issues with regard to aggression were not the product of any decent breeding program. Their homes didn't seem to have much to do with it. Many of them had other GSD's already.

Additionally...on the topic of these dogs as rescue dogs...being poorly bred (or a product of a breeder who just didn't really care to do anything resembling thought into what they were producing) even produce dogs that can be rehomed and retrained?
 
#41 ·
Does this issue not also come down to breeders and producing balanced, sane, dogs?

Additionally...on the topic of these dogs as rescue dogs...being poorly bred (or a product of a breeder who just didn't really care to do anything resembling thought into what they were producing) even produce dogs that can be rehomed and retrained?
Yes.

And yes, even the ones that have issues can be rehomed and retrained. The problem, as a couple of people have already mentioned in this thread, is that there's a very limited subset of homes (and an even more limited subset of foster homes) that have both the skills and willingness to do it.

Serious sport and working homes will not take a dog that can't do whatever they want to do with the animal. If your goal is to be able to achieve a very high level of performance in anything, then you're going to seek out a dog with the maximum chance of success in that endeavor. There are hard limits to what you can accomplish with a dog that has shaky nerves and/or physical structure (see also: why I will be buying my next puppy from a performance breeder).

The best bet for a lot of working-breed rescue dogs is casual sport homes and/or active, dedicated, knowledgeable pet homes. You want owners who know and care enough to give an appropriate, structured outlet to the dog's intelligence, drive, and energy, but who are not so competition-oriented that they are going to be seriously disappointed if the dog can't rock high scores after two years of intensive training.

Those homes are out there, and they can do fantastic things with project dogs. But there aren't that many of them and it's a rare, lucky dog who wins that life lottery.
 
#40 ·
There are lots of very good dogs.... that are horrible dogs for certain homes. Not anything against the dog or the person, just not a proper match.

Example: Some really nice dogs are not "dog-park" type dogs. Put them in a home where they are expected to welcome loose dogs belonging to friends/family coming and going, and they may be labeled "bad."
 
#44 ·
Gwen, I laughed at that too. Not sure a SAR person should admit to that. :rofl:
 
#45 ·
The question whether or not to licence the breed didn't lose its actuality, more and more people don't recognise GSD as a working class dog and want to raise him like a cactus in a pot, for their children to ride him, and the strangers to hug him. The trouble is not the dog, but people. If you tell the owner that hugging means agression in doggy language, and that was the only reason why his daughter was bitten - that person would raise his brow in disbelief. People are driven by their own ideas, they don't read anything - that is where the trouble starts. In Europe you would be simply rejected as a potential owner of a certain breed if you fail to answer certain questions about the puppy breed you intend to get at exam:Dog Control - Department of the Environment, Community & Local Government. You cannot have GSD if you don't have much time, if you are not physically fit, if you like alcohol and like to have big parties in the garden too often, if you are an argumentative, mentally unstable person, and especially - if you have a conflict in your family or about to divorse. Seems, the issue is getting tougher with time, no blame on the dog, only on the owner:Dog owners face written and practical tests - The Local,
The majority of working line GSD can potentially be great family pets. All depends who you are.
 
#46 ·
The question whether or not to licence the breed didn't lose its actuality, more and more people don't recognise GSD as a working class dog and want to raise him like a cactus in a pot, for their children to ride him, and the strangers to hug him. The trouble is not the dog, but people. If you tell the owner that hugging means agression in doggy language, and that was the only reason why his daughter was bitten - that person would raise his brow in disbelief. People are driven by their own ideas, they don't read anything - that is where the trouble starts. In Europe you would be simply rejected as a potential owner of a certain breed if you fail to answer certain questions about the puppy breed you intend to get at exam:Dog Control - Department of the Environment, Community & Local Government. You cannot have GSD if you don't have much time, if you are not physically fit, if you like alcohol and like to have big parties in the garden too often, if you are an argumentative, mentally unstable person, and especially - if you have a conflict in your family or about to divorse. Seems, the issue is getting tougher with time, no blame on the dog, only on the owner:Dog owners face written and practical tests - The Local,
The majority of working line GSD can potentially be great family pets. All depends who you are.

Should not a lot of these issues be weeded out by good breeders? I hate to put the responsibility on the breeders out there but I was picky as all **** about the buyers I sold to when I was breeding horses.

As a buyer I certainly noticed the difference with WL breeders. The good breeders wanted to know about me, what I was looking for and why. WHY was the big question (and the one that most impressed me as stupid as it sounds)...the bad breeders just offered a price and a date and possibly told me how amazing the cousins-sisters-grandsire twice removed was back in Germany and listed that dogs titles. And then they usually asked silly things like what colour/size/sex I was looking for. (literally these were the things I have been offered by people producing registered WL dogs)

It seems to me the issue still stems from a lack of breeder responsibility or caring. If we assume that temperament is the main cause of unmanageability and aggression issues and it really seems to be just based on answers I got in my other thread about WL dogs that don't 'work'

It's something that cant really be resolved. There will always be crappy breeders willing to sell dogs to people who don't care what they are buying they just want a big 'police dog' to impress their friends. Or that's my naïve and brand new soon-to-be-owner take on the whole process.

I could have purchased a dozen puppies by now from people who would happily have sold me anything I asked for. Im just smart enough to know I don't know what to ask for....yet. Gotta wonder about the people buying those dogs.
 
#47 ·
It seems to me the issue still stems from a lack of breeder responsibility or caring. If we assume that temperament is the main cause of unmanageability and aggression issues and it really seems to be just based on answers I got in my other thread about WL dogs that don't 'work'
Please, it is not true. First of all - a good puppy is costly, a good breeder would ask you not less than $1.500 - 2000, otherwise the whole breeding business would lose any sense, because the breeder's investment in his dogs was huge. A good puppy is on demand, you order him/her before his mother was mated. First born puppies are the most valuable, you may post here on this Forum yet another question about filling a contract between you and the breeder who is responsible for your puppy health, temperament and intellectual potential, all these three qualities are genetically inherited in dogs. Every GSD carries a potential to become agressive, and that would be your responsibility not to trigger that devil, but to raise a confident and obedient companion. Dogs don't train themselves from birth, GSDs are terribly obedient dogs, but you should consider training from the very first day you get him. Schutzhund protection is only one of three parts of competition, it uses playful dogs and their prey drive, and agressive dogs are disqualified. If you asked about good trusting breeder - many professionals in this Forum would suggest one or several.
 
#48 ·
Costly and good are not mutually exclusive. Every breeder I looked at started at 1500$ that was the going rate. Regardless of the lines, titles etc.
Even the breeders who would sell me anything I want. And why wouldn't they charge the going rate? That doesn't mean you are getting what you pay for.

I stand by my assessment that a lot of it is breeder responsibility. I can name at least one WL breeder whose dogs are all over the place. On paper they look great (to someone like me with minimal knowledge) but they're mentally scattered with no consistency. As in NO consistency at all. This is not an issue of owner irresponsibility or lack of training. This is genetics and lack of care in what gets crossed with what.
It's puppy milling of WL dogs.

And dogs like Boban having such a bad rap...training? or genetics? You imply it's all training and only training...
Interesting...Im sure there are a number of breeders here who would disagree.

I know a little of how genetics works just from a history of breeding sport horses. There are lines that are workable, there are lines that produce a certain kind of athleticism and there are lines that are known for being borderline dangerous and moody. Regardless of how they are raised or handled. This is just a fact. I would assume the same is true of dogs.

Im not sure what you mean about asking about a puppy contract? Ive never asked such a thing anywhere on this forum?? If you could clarify what you mean by that statement that would be great!
 
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