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Old 01-09-2013, 10:06 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Crappy people will abandon puppies if they aren't getting paid.

Decent people will do what they should, and just not be rewarded.

I mean if I run a red light and cause an accident and stick around and take the blame, I don't get rewarded for doing the right thing, I still get a ticket, my insurance still gets pinged. If I run, I get caught and am in a lot worse trouble. But staying there doesn't make me a hero.

No way do you want to give the crappy person who would've dumped the puppies money. The pups would be better off in rescue than with a crappy yayhoo like that.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:04 AM   #72 (permalink)
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I find it odd that, at other times, a price of "only" $500 is a warning of a bad breeder because it is too cheap. That the breeder isn't going to be doing enough to weed out bad buyers by charging such a bargain basement price. Shoot, here, even BYB pups out of nothing but pet lines start at over $400. Some of them don't even LOOK like GSDs. Right now, we have a litter of mixed breeds that is being sold for $175 a pup and, yes, people are buying them because they are cute. (Actually it was over Christmas and they sold out in only a couple days) In some places, the city pound charges a couple hundred for a puppy.
In this situation, however, $500 is suddenly a HUGE amount of money and way too expensive?

I guess that I'm not getting the double standard.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:32 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Oops litter between a brother and a sister that are only 1 year old? Yes too much. $100 rehoming fee maybe but yes $500 is just looking to make some $ off an accident. Yes they are being honest but it doesn't mean that the op needs to pay it.

Even if it was $100 or free looking at the pedigree it might not be a good idea. "intense working dog" probably isn't something a first time gsd owner needs to experiment with. Hopefully they can find some good sport homes that might be willing to take a dog for free that could handle any extreme phenotypes that crop up.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:49 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Dainerra gets it.

I think there is a moral repugnance here because the sire and dam are brother sister.

what would be said if the accidental breeding had been to two quality outcross GSD ?

In an earlier post I said at least the people owned up to the mistake and did not misrepresent the dogs ancestry with fudged papers.

The SV itself needed cleaning up , think back to the controversy surrounding Cello v d Romerau who is listed by Natz Hasenborn and out of Quana Arminius .

However, it is widely thought that the actual sire was not Natz but the full brother to Quana , Quando Arminius . That makes that breeding the same , an incest , brother sister breeding as the accidental litter .

Cello is the reason that DNA testing was brought in to verify parentage.

Then you have Cello many times back massed on showline dogs - Erasmus Noort , etc.

Used to have access to a person who was brilliant with figuring out inbreeding co-efficients . I would hazzard a guess that show lines have a greater ratio then the litter discussed ?? mathy people?

more later - got things to do
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:55 AM   #75 (permalink)
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I don't think there is an ick factor or morality issue.

I think there is the idea of hmmm....we know that this isn't a good idea in general, in people or animals, and IF ONLY "breeders" and buyers understood the genetics of what they were doing/getting with the backmassing you mention!

But 2 wrongs don't make a right, the puppies are here, and could be sold for $500 with $300 returned upon certification of spay or neuter. Which would require, yes, some bookkeeping and follow up, and saving out that $300.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:56 AM   #76 (permalink)
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1. the parents are puppies themselves, probably the females second heat.
2. It isn't that $500 is waay too expensive or double standard. If they were charging $200, does it matter?
It is about the pups well-being, and careful placement.

They could sell these pups on ebay classifieds in one day for those prices(and people wouldn't care about parentage or pedigree, I'm sure), cute puppy photo's always sell, and people who don't do research will buy from internet classifieds, happens all the time.

It's the fact that this particular litter should be placed carefully and the breeder should be responsible for the pups if the new owners can't deal with the 'intense' drive or possible health issue that may crop up.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:57 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSDElsa View Post
Oops litter between a brother and a sister that are only 1 year old? Yes too much. $100 rehoming fee maybe but yes $500 is just looking to make some $ off an accident. Yes they are being honest but it doesn't mean that the op needs to pay it.

Even if it was $100 or free looking at the pedigree it might not be a good idea. "intense working dog" probably isn't something a first time gsd owner needs to experiment with. Hopefully they can find some good sport homes that might be willing to take a dog for free that could handle any extreme phenotypes that crop up.
With this, I agree!

Quote:
I don't think there is an ick factor or morality issue.
Not at all.
Here in the rescue we had Doxie puppies, one who perished the day after we got them in (he was sick when they brought them the night before) we placed quite easily and they were the result of a brother-sister breeding. The two that lived are doing quite well, actually. Their color is "off" but they are beautiful and healthy despite the inbreeding. I do think brother died due to a congenital issue due to the inbreeding however.

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Old 01-10-2013, 02:19 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dainerra View Post
I find it odd that, at other times, a price of "only" $500 is a warning of a bad breeder because it is too cheap. That the breeder isn't going to be doing enough to weed out bad buyers by charging such a bargain basement price. Shoot, here, even BYB pups out of nothing but pet lines start at over $400. Some of them don't even LOOK like GSDs. Right now, we have a litter of mixed breeds that is being sold for $175 a pup and, yes, people are buying them because they are cute. (Actually it was over Christmas and they sold out in only a couple days) In some places, the city pound charges a couple hundred for a puppy.
In this situation, however, $500 is suddenly a HUGE amount of money and way too expensive?

I guess that I'm not getting the double standard.
I don't see my view as a double standard. I wouldn't expect a breeder who has a quality "oops" litter (say, two adults they would consider breeding together anyway get together unplanned) to charge any less than the value of the pups.

For me, a bigger issue is the immaturity of the mother. As I said I'm not a dog breeder, but in horses I have worked with the offspring of too-young mothers and often they are stunted and not good performance animals. When the mother's body is still growing, it's hard for the developing fetus to get the resources it needs, even with top-notch care. All of the good horse breeders I know will abort an accidental pregnancy in an immature mare (even if she's physically capable of carrying it to term without significant danger to herself) for this reason--but abortion also seems to be easier in mares than in bitches. In addition, due to their ages these dogs don't have any testing done regarding dysplasia and other health issues if I understand correctly. Taking a puppy is a big gamble in that case.

So I would have major reservations with buying one of these pups as a working dog. However, it also seems like their breeding makes it likely that they will be too intense for a casual pet. To me, that isn't a dog with much value. If the bitch was older, my answer might be different.

And since I was the one who brought up the $500 and relative prices, I do just want to be really clear...I didn't say I wouldn't pay full price for an accidental litter, even a brother-sister one. I would just feel the need to do a lot more research into the breeder and owner in order to make sure this was someone I felt comfortable giving money to. My stance on that issue has less to do with the dogs themselves, and more to do with the fact that I want to be sure I'm not supporting a pattern of irresponsible breeding.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:16 PM   #79 (permalink)
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If it was an outcross, and the breeder said oops, I still wouldn't buy from them, not for $500. A breeder should be more careful, and not hide behind oopses when breeding a bitch who is young or otherwise shouldn't be bred.

If this was a mature bitch and dog and the breeder had all the ducks lined up and whoops! the son left them play out in the yard together, the breeder should just whelp and raise and sell the pups as normal.

But there may not be an ick factor, but selling to the general public that may not realize how much line breeding some well-bred dogs have, and even if it is there, in their 3-4 generation pedigree, they really don't see it there, not like they would in a brother-sister cross. So, I think a lot of people would be a lot more wary of this litter and not want to pay even $500. I think it is rightfully so, but for different reasons: the breeder was irresponsible, the bitch was too young, and if they make a bunch of money and sell them quick, they might just go ahead and do it again.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:31 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Okay.. Dogs aren't people, so lets take the "EWww would you let your kids breed?" Bull somewhere else.


Inbreeding and linebreeding are fine, when done by someone who really understands genetics and their line of dogs. A professional.

These dogs are a 'crapshoot'. It was an unintentional direct inbreeding of a PUPPY, so health and final temperament of the dam can't even be known. I think asking anything for them is asking too much. These people need to own up to the fact THEY made a big mistake and learn from it, maybe charge enough to cover the cost of the vet care (shots, checkups) for the puppies, with a spay/neuter contract on the adoptive owner to pay when the pup is old enough.

But that's just my opinion.
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