Accidental Inbreeding by brother sister - Page 6 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

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Old 01-09-2013, 06:34 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I wouldn't pay $500 for a pup from a breeding like this. A few hundred, maybe, if the parents seem to have nice temperaments as pets at least, and the pups health is kept up on (deworming, initial vaccinations, etc) and they aren't weaned at 5 or 6 weeks old. It's funny how many BYB's say they'll keep pups until they are 8 weeks old at least, but by the time they are 5 or 6 weeks and big rambunctious messy pups, suddenly it's, "Well they are eating fine on their own, and driving mom nuts, so they are ready to go!" So much litter socialization and learning comes from staying with mom and the litter (at least the litter, if not mom).

The fact that the person at the vets office told you to pass because of a dog with issues....well, that wouldn't make me trust that vet much. All dogs, even well bred ones, can have issues. It's just like with people - some of it's genetics, some of it's a crapshoot. Even the best bred dogs can have major medical problems, there are posters here that have paid thousands from a very well known reputable breeder whose dogs have issues. Some have woken up to a dead 6 month old puppy due to an unknown heart condition that couldn't have been known about just by listening to the heart at the vet, some of us have dogs with digestive disorders that require lifetime enzymes mixed with food so they can digest their food and not turn into a skeleton that can't survive, allergies that can't seem to be controlled regardless of diet and environment, and a whole host of other things.

I would not pass because of what the vet said. Honestly, what they said was ridiculous. However, I might pass based on meeting the parents and seeing how their temperament is, how they react to you in the home (they are pups themselves, they should be friendly and outgoing, not skittish and barky or "protective" - which is actually fear aggression unless you displaying threatening behavior). I wouldn't pass if they seem quiet or aloof, but as a pet dog, you really want to look for more outgoing friendly behavior from such young adults. These things ARE genetic and socialization can only help so much if they get crappy temperment from the parents.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:39 PM   #52 (permalink)
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and what would you pay if you got a dog from a shelter?
seriously , I am asking.

people value what they pay for . $500 is not going to make anyone wealthy. Even the regular going rate is not going to make any one wealthy - nor should it be the goal.

$500 or under will take care of the mother's increased needs, feed the pups, get them a veterinary exam , the first set of shots, worming -- not to forget the countless hours that pups need in basic sanitation, and socialization.

There is no win . If the breeder gave the dogs away people would complain that they were cavalier and they saw no value in them - disposable -- if they charge something as a first level screening process , at least trying to do the best for them , they also are criticized. People tend to value what they pay for .
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:40 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I wouldn't pay $500 for a pup from that litter either (but I also probably wouldn't take a free pup from that litter), I was just throwing that out there to illustrate what I was trying to say--that I'd feel more comfortable if I didn't feel like the owners were trying to make a profit on the pups. I picked the numbers kind of randomly. Just to be clear.

OP, I think passing is the right thing to do. I don't know that I agree with your vet's reasons either, but it sounds like you have enough concerns about the situation that it's probably better to wait and find a puppy you feel comfortable with.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:43 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I don't think the breeder should even think about 'breaking even' in an accidental breeding. They should take their losses monetarily and not expect people to pay for their 'mistake'.
I do believe very, very careful screening of potential owners and the normal breeder's protocol with first rights should happen however.
Especially the lines that this litter comes from, they should not just place them in pet homes, but w/more experienced handlers. These pups may end up to be more than the average pet owner can deal with.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:48 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I disagree that they aren't going to make money if they are charging $500 a pup.

I have not bred dogs. But for years, we were a foster home for a high kill shelter that regularly placed moms and pups with us. So I have experience raising a litter in that regard.

Generally, the mom won't have any issues. I know there are stories abounding of issues, but reality is that usually they whelp without any medical intervention needed. Especially the dogs that shouldn't be bred, it just seems that those are always the ones that have huge litters and have no issues whelping.

Raising the litter, a few hundred in supplies and some maintenance. Group costs for vacciations isn't that much (less than the cost of one pup given OP's price estimate) and even less if the person vaccinates themselves which many will do, especially if the breeder does and is helping through the process and explains to them how to do it to save money.

Mom will eat a little extra, most people won't give supplements of any kind nor are they truely needed to raise the litter. If they do, it'll be with things at home such as eggs, cottage cheese, etc. The pups eat, sure, but if mom is feeding well and supplementing, they won't eat that much in $$. We had a few litters we had to hand raise (in a couple cases, no mom, and in another mom wasn't making milk due to her very poor condition). We actually used leerburgs formula recipe and it isn't cheap for growing pups, but still not more than a couple hundred when all is said and done with.

If she had a litter of 8, which isn't abnormal or huge by any means, that is 4 grand. They won't spend that. These dogs haven't had training, titling, any kind of out of pocket costs for showing or evaluating. They are just pets. They will certainly be making money if they are sold for $500 each and have more than a couple of pups.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:14 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Carmen, you ought to know that when you breed properly, and add in all the training, and the shows, and the health screening, and keeping up and coming critters, and feeding good food, and taking back dogs, and spending the time, etc, and all the other expenses for breeding properly you can break even, or not, but your profit margin is way lower than the guy who pumps out puppies for $500.

If you have 12 bitches, and two are retired, and 3 have washed, and 3 are up and coming, and 1 missed and you had 3 litters in the course of a year, lets say 15 puppies at an average of $1500, that would be $22,500 less $1600 in health screening, $7,200 in dog food, $3,200 in veterinary expenses, $2000 in training, three stud fees, $3000, $1000 in shows/entrance fees and expenses, and registrations -- all low end guestimates, at the end of the day 4,500 between 15 puppies which is about $300 per pup profit, and that is being super generous as there are a kajilion expenses that I haven't even touched.

But the dude that has 12 bitches, breeds them all, feeds them the cheapest dog food, doesn't do any of the niceties, well he can produce 4 times the number of puppies, sell them quicker at $500, that's $30,000 right there, take away $3000 for food, and $2,000 or less in veterinary expense, and you have $25,000 profit. Maybe he has to replace a pup here and there, but 5 pups/litter is guestimating low anyway, and some of the bitches he will breed twice in the year. $25,000/60puppies is over 400$ profit per pup. He does better than you, though you charge more.

No I would not give $500 per pup to an oops litter -- that is all money in the bank at the end of the day. They may do it again next year.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:22 PM   #57 (permalink)
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And I agree that people value more what they pay for. The perpetrator of an oops litter will have to work extra hard to find the right people who will be willing to take a puppy. There are good people out there that will value a dog that they do not pay an arm and a leg for. That is what the oops-breeder needs to find. He needs to judge people very carefully because while a healthy price tag does not guaranty a good home, a lot of the less desireable homes, people who wouldn't pay for a dog to go to the vet if its sick or injured will be weeded out.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:35 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I have a dog that was an accidental father daughter breeding. I am in NO WAY encouraging this but she's fantastic. We had some health issues in the beginning that were vet stressful, but I don't believe it's at all related. I think she caught some type of bacteria. Anyways, she's beautiful, full of drive, super intelligent and kicking butt in training. We are doing french ring and if I had the money I would be doin many other sports with her. She loves to work. She's also great with kids, learning to settle nicely in the house and easy to take absolutely anywhere.

I wouldn't spend 500 on the dog your talking about but if cheap and I checked out the pups I'd be open to it for a pet.

My parents have a mix that is not all there. That could happen to any dog. Inbreeding itself does not CAUSE retardation or health problems. As others above have said. But good luck with either decision.


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Old 01-09-2013, 07:48 PM   #59 (permalink)
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For every one who are so quick to say they would never take an inbred dog, how do you know the dog at the shelter with a completely unknown pedigree is not inbred? At least with these dogs you know the pedigree and it is a pretty good one at that. Who knows how these pups will turn out? My guess is that they will have extreme intensity being bred so close on Django. They may make very interesting sport dogs if place in the right homes.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:52 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Key word "if "placed in the right homes....and not failed by those homes.
Shelter dogs can't really be compared to this incident, only if those pups end up at shelters.
Extreme intensity may not be a good thing.
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