German Shepherds Forum banner

Did I make a huge mistake? (sit means sit)

41K views 55 replies 20 participants last post by  cherir.kck9 
#1 ·
I found this forum from google searches, and apparently I just made a huge mistake for my dog? We will be starting in the coming weeks.

I have a 1.5 year old female GSD. She has leash reactivity issues to other dogs. I tried a positive only trainer and she only lasted halfway through our second session before the trainer ended up refunding my money and telling me I needed to find a behaviorist. She was scared of my dog.

My dog is wonderful and a joy to have around. She is a very "Grab life by the horns" kind of dog. She has a wonderful personality, but she also will chase anything that moves. I want to be able to take her more places with me and keep her under control without constantly micromanaging the environment. We want to have fun! But we are a bit stuck, as just a walk around the neighborhood can be challenging.

So I did look up behaviorists. But the few I was rec. to were...very expensive per session. Like $4-900 per session expensive, with no promises. From what I understand, this would take several sessions at least. Ouch!

I also looked into Schutzhund or ringsport clubs, but they almost all use ecollars too. It seems to be the secret???

So I just did a bunch of it on my own, but I am still over my head. I am a big fan of Ellis, as well as all of the big name positive trainers. We tried BAT, counter conditioning...which helped at a distance. We have also used the c.a.r.e protocol.

I was not making much progress until I used a pinch collar, honestly. That suggestion was also on this forum. Now we can be within 20 feet of other dogs with no drama, but if the other dog is staring her down or barking she still loses it. She makes an effort to turn away from the other dog, or offer me sit/down before I correct her most of the time, which I reward.

So I saw the sit means sit people at my local market. They had dogs just chillin' with them and behaving well. They did not seem scared or anything, but I did notice the ecollars on the dogs. They offered a free consult so I said w/e, why not.

The trainer who showed up had a perfect little mal, who was off lead and impressive and yada yada, even with my dog barking at him. I could not tell when he was shocking the dog, but what do I know (I have never used an ecollar). He seemed really up to date on training stuff, and was happy I was already doing marker training and knew who Michael Ellis was. He encouraged me to continue with that, but I still signed up for classes (NOT CHEAP but supposedly life long lessons?) out of desperation/fear of my dog ever being able to attack another dog/family pressure.

I had looked up their yelp reviews, which were all glowing. I know people who used their training, and they were happy/dogs were happy.
But now I have seen other stuff, including on this forum, that suggests I have done the wrong thing. I am having a lot of anxiety over all of this. I am apparently going to turn my dog into a neurotic beast who is too afraid to do anything.

I don't know what else to do. He said we would work positively, but 'proof' her obedience with the ecollar. Him and the other trainers do bite work. I put the ecollar on, and even at the higher levels it was just...unpleasant. Not really painful though, just uncomfortable. I have put a prong on myself and that hurt more (yes, I wanted to make sure I could feel what I was going to do to my dog).

I have done some research on ecollars, and it seems intimidating and as opinionated as other forms of dog training. :surprise:

I have read Lou Castles website, and it seems quite reasonable though...

I am a newbie to ecollar training (but not dog training, I have had several GSDs) and just want to do what is best for the both of us.

p.s. I wish I could e-mail everyone who reads this some cookies for reading this doozy of a post.

Thank you for your time!
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Hi Gonzo, welcome to the forum.

First of all, relax and BREATHE!! I think you are just twisting yourself into a know over stuff you read that may or may not apply to your situation.

Sit means Sit is a franchise, so anyone, even someone with absolutely no dog training experience can buy into it, take their training course (which is e-collar training), and set themselves up as a "professional" dog trainer. So in general, not something that we would recommend.

However, you can find some very good, very experienced, very knowledgeable trainers who are SMS trainers. It's a good way for someone to set themselves up in the business with a well-known name behind them for exposure.

If the trainer's dog looked happy and engaged with the guy, I'm saying he is most likely using low-stim training, wich is like what Lou Castle does. I think he can help you if you give him a chance. I can't see what is going on with your dog, so I may be wrong, but a dog like yours needs clear boundries as to what behaviours are acceptable, and which ones are not, and 100% positive has its limits in that regard as you have found out.

I say try him out, he's not going to 'wreck' your dog unless he slaps the ecollar on and zaps him constantly at max power until your dog screams for mercy over and over again, and you are not going to let that happen anyways.

I also think that your dog can benefit from a few well-timed corrections, so don't freak if this trainer does this - use your judgement and gut feeling on this.

You could ask him for references - or ask to sit in and watch him work with another client. But if he is a Michael Ellis fan, you are probably in good hands.
 
#3 ·
Either that or he is a salesman. A salesman knows how to tell you what you want to hear. Kind of like a good fortune teller can read you and say things that in general would apply, and would most likely apply to you. It's possible.

Having the dog there, happy and engaged isn't a sales pitch.

The free for all I was at over the weekend had a lot of young dogs. My friend uses the e-collars for an electric fence, so her dogs don't get tore up by the neighbor's dog. She uses it with her youngest if her youngest will not stop pestering the older dogs. Some of the other pups had e-collars on and all but one seemed happy and confident. Most are using the same trainer.

Only one of the dogs seemed to be of a softer personality, not familiar with playing with other dogs, and when they zapped her with the collar, she flinched badly.

They seem to be similar to the power steering that the prong collar has become. I think they can be used properly. They can easily be abused. You still have to get the timing right, and you might as well give a correction with your voice or with a prong collar. I think people like it, because they can remove the leash aspect and still correct. Leashes can cause issues with other dogs. So can correction collars.

Personally, I wonder what people's expectations are with a dog. Do you expect the dog to run and play with dogs it doesn't know? Do you expect the dog to walk down the street without reacting to another dog -- just ignoring it. Some dogs are naturally more social than others, and trying to fit a square dog into a round hole might be unfair to the dog and difficult for you. So you have to land somewhere between what you want and what you need when it comes to a dog. I might want my dog to run and play with all dogs, I might need my dog to work with me during a dog show -- walk by hundreds of dogs without acting like an idiot. And where I might land is a dog that can do the dog show thing, and maybe play with a few dogs he knows, but isn't a good candidate for doggy day care.

Sometimes when we let go of our expectations for the dog we want, and start focusing on the needs of the dog we have, we can be more relaxed in those situations that we take the dog into and the dog can become more relaxed, and we can make good progress.

Sometimes.

I agree that sometimes a good correction will help right a dog derailing dog.

Good luck with your dog. You can find good trainers hiding all over. I even saw one decked out in a PetsMart cloak once.
 
#4 ·
I read it to say, the guy knew who ME was, not that he was a fan?

My vote would be to watch this guy work with new client's dogs, NOT his demo dog. I think you absolutely owe it to your dog to really know what this guy is like with a remote in his hand before you let him do it to your dog.

Listen for him to be talking about how to avoid superstitious behavior, notice if he starts a new dog on remote with other dogs nearby or in a busy place.

Better yet, get the Ellis E Collar DVDs and listen to what he says about it and then see how this guy measures up to that.

I think there are definitely E Collar trainers out there who are too heavy handed because it has the capability of getting quick, dramatic results for frustrated pet owners. Can also result in fallout which you are aware of.
 
#5 ·
I believe in balance training but my 3 y/o girl is taking a Feisty Fido class at a positive only school.

She got a prong collar when she was about 6 months old but we don't use it in Feisty because the trainer doesn't want her to get a correction for reacting to another dog. I've never had a shepherd who didn't respond to a 'NO stop being a jerk' type of correction. Over threshold or she's just kinda soft like that.

What we focus on doing in Feisty is my helping her. Reading her before she reacts. Teaching her what to do, how to think and how to react appropriately without my telling her what to do. That was a huge revelation for me, the connection I was missing. She had SA, she used to sleep practically ontop of me until she was 2 1/2.

She's was expecting me to help her all this time and I was giving her corrections. It's a process, we'll probably have to repeat the class for her to get to a level I'm happy with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cigarillo
#6 ·
I just wanted to share an experience my niece had with SMS. She signed up with SMS and told us about the experience. I would never use them, due to her experience, but I have read some good things on this forum with other people being happy with them.

My advice would be to be careful. As you were, my niece was very impressed with the trainer that came to their house and his demo dog. She was very excited to get started. On the first lesson someone else came for the lesson. She was not real impressed with this new trainer, I think she decided to give it a try, also I think she thought she had no choice anyway, having a contract. She did say SMS ruined her dog. Get the trainer you want or keep trying until you do, don't put up with some newbie that shows up if that happens to you, keep at it until they assign you a trainer that you are happy with, hopefully it will be the trainer you met with.........good luck.
 
#7 ·
Gonzo,

Been there...done that....if your dog comes up the leash at ya when using the e-collar.....go to a dominant dog collar and someone that really knows how to properly use one. I have one dog reactive bitch of a GSD.....the DDC and the way I was instructed to use it somewhat lines up with Lou's protocol......the correction is more of an environmental consequence rather than a correction for defiance of a handler's command ( because none is issued ) but yet the reward for proper behavior is always there. It has worked the best of all methods I have tried.

One cannot tell you... without seeing your dog... what exactly needs to be done because dogs and their quirks are varied. However, when you find the right combination of correction, reward, training and getting your dog to seriously engage you....you can get your dog where you want it.

SuperG
 
#8 · (Edited)
I am a trainer with SMS. I have posted some videos up of my dogs here with the remote collar. Our method is attention, the power of touch via the remote collar and our collars are specially designed for us using TENS medical unit technology. These are not the cheap shock collars you can pick up in any chain store or online which are used as correction and deterrents. Depending on where it is placed on your body would also illicit different feeling of response. I test it on my hand and that is where I have all my clients feel it, I can feel it more in some areas than others of my hand. In some areas it moves my muscle and others it does not, same on a dog's neck. Every SMS operates under the same methodology but it is a franchise so each location is going to offer something a little different. We do not use corrections at all. It is used as a gas pedal, steering wheel, or brake. I can speed my dogs up to motivate them and increase drive (think of a crowd using their energy to cheer on marathon runners), I can slow them down, I can move them in different directions. It is the 21st century leash. I have a ton of remote collar videos I can share with you, there is also a remote collar training facebook group that was started by SMS and is a very active group with over 7k members where you can see stories, videos, and photos of trainers, clients, franchise owners, and people just enjoying life with their remote collar trained dogs. Recently there was a woman in the group who posted about the same concerns you did because she started listening to all the naysayers tell her to stay away and remote collar training will ruin her dog, she did the free eval and enjoyed it and loved the trainer and signed up:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/623415091098477/


"I had looked up their yelp reviews, which were all glowing. I know people who used their training, and they were happy/dogs were happy.
But now I have seen other stuff, including on this forum, that suggests I have done the wrong thing. I am having a lot of anxiety over all of this. I am apparently going to turn my dog into a neurotic beast who is too afraid to do anything."

If your dog turns into that then you are doing something wrong. Any training aid can be misused so that is why it is important to go to someone who knows what they are doing. SMS is a dog training company and remote collar trainer specialists. This is the majority of what we do. As a company we train over 1500 dogs a month across the country, take into the account the bad reviews and compare them to the number of positive ones. There are going to be bad apples in every bunch in any company and those apples will be dealt with appropriately. Once a year we do a continuing education week in Las Vegas where we are in class every day with different trainers and owners within the company from across the nation and learning and staying up to date with our craft and working each other's dogs and helping each other. SMS may not be for everyone, like any trainer out there, but for the ones we help I can seen amazing transformations and results. I train pet dogs with this collar 40+ hours a week. I encourage anyone to check out different trainers, watch them demo their dog or a client's dog, and watch them show a change in your dog. You have got to find one you click with.


My neurotic beasts ;)

My bitch is in PSA and my male is a therapy dog. They are in public constantly so good manners are a must.






My Siberian Husky is also my off leash demo dog. She was the typical husky that would run away, bolt at any given chance, dart into and across traffic, pull on leash, drag me down, she has killed cats..this is her after a couple months of ever being on a remote collar.

 
#9 ·
I am a trainer with SMS. I have posted some videos up of my dogs here with the remote collar. Our method is attention, the power of touch via the remote collar and our collars are specially designed for us using TENS medical unit technology. These are not the cheap shock collars you can pick up in any chain store or online which are used as correction and deterrents. Depending on where it is placed on your body would also illicit different feeling of response. I test it on my hand and that is where I have all my clients feel it, I can feel it more in some areas than others of my hand. In some areas it moves my muscle and others it does not, same on a dog's neck. Every SMS operates under the same methodology but it is a franchise so each location is going to offer something a little different. We do not use corrections at all. It is used as a gas pedal, steering wheel, or brake. I can speed my dogs up to motivate them and increase drive (think of a crowd using their energy to cheer on marathon runners), I can slow them down, I can move them in different directions. It is the 21st century leash. I have a ton of remote collar videos I can share with you, there is also a remote collar training facebook group that was started by SMS and is a very active group with over 7k members where you can see stories, videos, and photos of trainers, clients, franchise owners, and people just enjoying life with their remote collar trained dogs. Recently there was a woman in the group who posted about the same concerns you did because she started listening to all the naysayers tell her to stay away and remote collar training will ruin her dog, she did the free eval and enjoyed it and loved the trainer and signed up:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/623415091098477/


"I had looked up their yelp reviews, which were all glowing. I know people who used their training, and they were happy/dogs were happy.
But now I have seen other stuff, including on this forum, that suggests I have done the wrong thing. I am having a lot of anxiety over all of this. I am apparently going to turn my dog into a neurotic beast who is too afraid to do anything."

If your dog turns into that then you are doing something wrong. Any training aid can be misused so that is why it is important to go to someone who knows what they are doing. SMS is a dog training company and remote collar trainer specialists. This is the majority of what we do. As a company we train over 1500 dogs a month across the country, take into the account the bad reviews and compare them to the number of positive ones. There are going to be bad apples in every bunch in any company and those apples will be dealt with appropriately. Once a year we do a continuing education week in Las Vegas where we are in class every day with different trainers and owners within the company from across the nation and learning and staying up to date with our craft and working each other's dogs and helping each other. SMS may not be for everyone, like any trainer out there, but for the ones we help I can seen amazing transformations and results. I train pet dogs with this collar 40+ hours a week. I encourage anyone to check out different trainers, watch them demo their dog or a client's dog, and watch them show a change in your dog. You have got to find one you click with.


My neurotic beasts ;)

My bitch is in PSA and my male is a therapy dog. They are in public constantly so good manners are a must.






My Siberian Husky is also my off leash demo dog. She was the typical husky that would run away, bolt at any given chance, dart into and across traffic, pull on leash, drag me down, she has killed cats..this is her after a couple months of ever being on a remote collar.

Specifically.....what is your protocol regarding the use of an e-collar for dog reactivity?


SuperG
 
#11 ·
@MustLoveGSDs I feel you are the appropriate one to ask given the state of your SMS experience. I have some questions.

If you do this sort of training, then does that mean the dogs have to be with the e-collar for their entire life?

How do they act if you command them without the device?

As the owner do you have to have the remote on you at all times for their entire life?

What if the dog has a heart condition?

And you say it is about communication not correction, so is it vibration or is electric pulses?
Most people frown on the idea of 'shocking' their dogs, and these collars I assume have come a long way since and I would appreciate if you could take a moment to answer my questions.

I do not believe dogs who are fearful would benefit from 'e collars', but you have lots of experience. The dogs people say got ruined and turned neurotic, is it possible this occurred because the dogs were softer and more fearful and this method did not turn out well for them?

Can these collars over time damage their necks (if it is vibration or electric pulses)?

What about hair loss?

Once again sorry for all the questions but I really want to get my facts straight. It's frustrating digging for vague answers I prefer to actually ask a person who knows their stuff.
 
#17 ·
eta Timing is huge, just like with any training method. There is an Ian Dunbar photo floating around with the information: "To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need: a thorough understanding of canine behavior. A thorough understanding of learning theory. Impeccable timing. And if you have those three things you don't need a shock collar." The truth is if you don't have those three things you have no business training anyone's dogs. The collar doesn't train the dog, just as a prong, halter, martingale doesn't train a dog. It is a bridge between you and the dog. You can put a golf club in my hand and I am not going to golf like Tiger woods. When people come in with their dog dragging them on the leash trying to eat other dogs I tell them what will happen if they drop the leash. They do not have their dog's attention, they rely on the leash and force which is useless when they are not holding the end of it.
 
#18 ·
Hmm ... I have no issues with E-Collars myself (when used properly) it seems most trainers are going that way and they have achieved good results. Still ... not my thing ... I like to employ the "KISS" principle and in that regard ... you don't need a "check book" to train your dog. You just need a "plan" and thes yo dogu saw "chilling out" ... no big deal ... I don't how "they" did it ... but it's called "The Place Command" and all rehab/training starts with that. In the post I'll link to everything you need to know about "Place" is in the "Fearful or Crazy" Boxer link. Also is "Sit on the Dog" and that's what you should do ... you take your dog on a short leash find a spot and "Sit" ... you don't need "tools" to do that.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

And whatever tool yor walking your walking your dog ... the "correction" is a slight tug sideways, not straight back and the correction needs to be given "before" the dog reacts, if the reaction has happened your to late turn around and walk away. Stuff on teaching your dog to ignore other dog can be found here:

Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs. :) - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

It sounds like if your dog is in the habit of chasing anything that moves?? If that is the case ... rehab should start in the home ... no free roaming in the house no bed or furniture privileges, indoors the dog should be in "Place" or in there "Crate" period. IF you want a dog that knows how to "chill??" That is how you get there. :)

And ME ... I listen to him all the time, I find him very "insightful" but I'm a family pet kinda guy and I don't find what he does very "practical" before "Dogs Behaving Badly" as it were. At anyrate ... you've already taken the first step in getting the dog you want and not the dog you have ... "out think" your dog.

I'm not a pro but when I found myself with 116 lbs of OS WL GSD on my hands that did not much care for people ... it was time to say:


And "we" got'er done, train "Place" and enforce a "No Free Roaming" in the house policy for 30 to 90 days ... your dog will form a "pattern" of "listening" to you, and everything else will become "easier" once that happens. And the "requirements for "corrections" will decrease. "Out think" your dog" as always ... ask questions and welcome aboard. :)
 
#21 ·
Don't get too caught up on the tool or the terminology. As the name says, sit means sit. Don't lose sight of what your trying to train and become dependent on the collar Romay. There's no magic to it. You press the button, dog complies, you release the button. You may adjust a little here and there to match your dogs temperament a little better, but whether your looking for attention or a sit, its still the same thing. Release of and avoidance of the stim.
 
#23 · (Edited)
You may adjust a little here and there to match your dogs temperament a little better, but whether your looking for attention or a sit, its still the same thing. Release of and avoidance of the stim.
That is one way to use the collar and the way most people think of when they hear "shock collar". That is the complete opposite of how SMS uses the collar though. We want engagement and attention, never want the stim to be a correction or deterrant. The stim means attention, we pair it with voice and touch, hand signals if its a deaf dog. We do not use it as a comply so the feeling goes away. I do not want my dog to be obedient because he is in fear of the stim or making a mistake.
 
#25 ·
They use the collars pretty much the same as everyone else. It's negative reinforcement and out of necessity the beginning of that is positive punishment for noncompliance if they're trying to get a behavior to happen. Don't get too caught up on their marketing and fast talk. They aren't any different from anyone else when it comes to cookie cutter franchise dog training. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. If it is done right it wont ruin a dog or make them neurotic or anything like that, but an E collar is an e collar. The dog by necessity doesn't like the sensation.
 
#27 · (Edited)
My bitch was working on 6's and 7's on medium dog in the video I shared earlier. She understands collar pressure and I can increase engagement and drive with it, it does not shut her down. Some people are at 7's with a leash and have zero attention out of their dog. I don't get caught up on a number because I am always adjusting it, i pay attention to the dog not the number.
 
#32 ·
I had the same experience with the e-collar as Super G- sometimes you need to crank it up. I've even heard Michael Ellis say this.

I wonder how Sit Means Sit uses low - level to stop a dog from chasing deer? I don't think attention is always the answer, often but not always.

I know some people aren't into listening to someone talk dog training science, but to the OP if you are educating yourself, this trainer discusses "low level" only and where it fails or isn't as effective and why.

 
#34 ·
Yeah, he makes a lot of sense. I've actually used some of his lectures to trouble shoot issues I've run into.

I don't want or need my dogs' attention for an entire 5 hour run. Most of the time the dogs are free to just be dogs and companions, but there are some things they can not do that they really would enjoy. Like chasing deer or moose.

Even when they are being dogs, I want them cueing in to me, but not an attention heel or anything of the sort. And I really don't want to be in any way depending on low-level stim to get that attention. The dogs are very bonded to me, they check in and they cue in to my body language and tone so much it is scary. So I'm not worried about our connection. Just, sometimes a deer is simply more motivating. They are dogs with a lot of prey drive.

What really helped me figure out some stuff was watching the dogs' completely focus and switch their attention to the sound of a marmot whistle. Dogs would be trotting along, sniffing the air or whatever, and a marmot whistle would turn the dogs into focused, marmot finding machines. I was like, huh, I need to be the marmot. I need the dogs to be able to switch on that focus and attention to MY whistle. Because dogs can do that. Go from just chilling to high-drive focused is the blink of an eye (especially GSD and malinois types...).

Lots of videos of trainers with dogs walking in a heel in a busy city, or whatnot, I don't find them super helpful. Because they depend on the dog constantly maintaining a "low level" (or sometimes very high level) focus on the trainer. I'd find that both exhausting and counter productive.

I want my dogs to be able to explore their environment with freedom to think and make good decisions. Focused heel is reserved for competition or very specific scenarios (a tight pass of another dog for example).

I have and would again crank up the e-collar with no commands at all for chasing deer, or similar. I go high from the start and I make it a learning experience. Sometimes that's the best way to go.

Not bashing SMS, might be a good choice, but do think about what you want for your dog and how best to accomplish that. Training is training is training. E-collar doesn't make training itself easier- training is training- but it offers an excellent means to achieve reliable off lead control and there is not better tool to stop things like chasing.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Its important to be honest in what we do as trainers.
When I use an E Collar on the dog, I issue a command then create pressure which the dog then seeks to avoid by going to a learned safe behaviour (Ex: Recall) that I have taught him therefor making that behaviour more likely and the undesired alternate behaviour (Ex. not coming when called) less likely. I can also use it to create extinction in certain behaviours that need to be erradicated.
What you quickly learn with E Collar, Prong collar or any device that is used for Neg Reenforcement is that once the dog has been in the system for a little bit he learns to cheat if you keep your levels to low. Instead of truly showing compliance to commands and offering the correct behaviour from start to finish, what he does is waits for the pressure. Then he relies on the pressure in order to be correct as opposed to actually applying himself to showing true obedience. He also becomes acclimated to the pressure meaning you end up having to use more intensity in the pressure to keep the dog correct.
Thats why I quickly go to positive punishment once the dog shows a basic understanding of the desired behaviour and make him very accountable.

Example: Dog is taught heeling with prong collar pressure. Over time instead of actually watching the handler he just waits to feel the prong tighten on his neck before he adjusts his pace or direction in the heeling. This dog will not heel without the prong on his neck and needs pressure every 30 seconds to minute in order to be correct.
Go from low pressure to punishment and you quickly see a dog that becomes very interested in watching the handler and avoiding any sensation from the collar as opposed to relying on feeling it. The same principle applies to the e collar.

I use E Collars on reactive dog aggressive dogs all the time they are my bread and butter. They work better then the prong collar imo.

I make no excuses and tell no stories about what I do. I will reward and or stress the dog as necessary to achieve the desired result. Why? It works plain and simple. I find informing customers about the theory behind the application actually makes for better handlers in the end. Stress fades as the dog gains clarity. Some soft dogs may attempt to "shut down". Shutting down is just another protest behaviour and I treat it as such and so it goes away.
 
#37 ·
I have seen the *cheating* behavior in various videos.I perceived it as the dog not fully understanding the command.For instance: the dog is at heel but not engaged with the handler at all.Looks like he's trying to stay within an invisible box,sometimes a little ahead or a little behind.

I was thinking he was avoiding pressure but actually he was depending on the pressure.Makes total sense.
 
#40 ·
I think people cheat without even thinking about it. It becomes natural. I got to cut that out. Because I know I have been guilty of just correcting my position so the dog is in the correct position at the end of an exercise. This is one of the things a good trainer can help with, because we might just do it naturally, and a good trainer can say, "Eh! don't fix that for your dog!" and you look at her like she has three heads, and then she shows you, dog stops out of place, and you are moving...

Oh, whatever, what was this thread about?
 
  • Like
Reactions: dogma13
#42 ·
This thread is making me crazy. I got annoyed with the new password system. I'm having a lot of trouble with it and stopped posting, but I made the effort to copy the stupid thing and log in when I saw this. And no, I'm not going to create another long complicated one that I also can't remember. The OP asked about a trainer and now we are debating whether someone else's dog is trained well enough? Did we answer the OP's questions?

There are three variables when training a dog, the dog, the handler and the environment. Some of you are very good at reading the communicating with your dogs or you've had years of experience and don't need stronger tools. You can read and communicate with your dogs to get the behaviors you want. You are capable and wise enough to deal with challenging environmental situations. When an owner can't get the dog to do what is needed, they should be able to use whatever they need to without criticism or being made to feel incompetent.

I have never used SMS so I have no dog in the race, but I don't see anything wrong with their methods if the trainer is competent. That is a fourth variable, the outside trainer. I always want to see a trainer's results with their own dogs and the relationship they have. I fired a trainer who got a little rough with my dog after seeing his dog was scared of him. Now I want to meet their dogs first before hiring a trainer. Is the trainer able to get the exact behavior I want from my dog with their own dog? Does the trainer have genuine affection for his dog and do they have a relationship, or does the dog just mechanically go through the exercises? Seeing a trainer work is a better reference than ten good recommendations.

Low e stim is fine, but if they have to go above about 40% of the collar strength, then the dog hasn't learned the foundations and has been pushed too hard. Go back and retrain in a calmer environment until the dog is proofed, then go out into crowds. An e collar is just one more tool available and if used properly will work. Any training device should be the way the trainer communicates with the dog what is wanted and nothing more, it is not a punishment. An e collar is another option for someone with a very strong willed dog or someone who isn't strong enough or willing to give prong corrections. Eventually, the dog should be able to do what you want without a prong or stim collar.
 
Top