I'm going to shoot myself here in Des Moines, IA if I can't find something (long)

[chelle]

I think my needs are simple. I want an Obedience class that allows the use of a prong. I would like it very much if we could bypass Obedience I, since we've done that and we really are ready to move on to a level up.

The trainer (group class) that we attended for Obed I is not offering an Obed II. She said not enough takers. Sigh.

So I got pretty excited that I found what I thought would be a great class -- even offering Sunday classes! yay! -- and inquired about the possibility of bypassing Obedience I with an evaluation, they said sure it could be possible if Bailey passed the eval ... then I thought, ok, I'd better ask about treats/prong.. and just got the ix-nay on that. Treats, yes. Prong collar, no.

I was told this:

"Once you get into class I think it will make more sense about how we are different. Relationship is everything when it comes to working with your dog and once relationship is established then you don't need other equipment to control the dog because the dog sees you as the best thing in the world.

For an example, xxxx and I have five dogs, three of which are under a year old. All of our dogs can be taken out doors hiking or out of our facility to potty off leash because we have established a relationship that overpowers any of their other wants. Granted our dogs that are under a year old aren't perfect but I can trust them and they respond to us when we need them to."

You know, I can't argue with accomplished trainers. This just kinda rubs the wrong way. Bails and I have a very strong, very established relationship. He does see me as the best thing in the universe. He does tons of offleash everything, at home, the trails, etc and so on. The prong is what I use in other environments, where I want to be assured of control. At Petco. In our last training class. For a walk. Anywhere I'm not positive of the environment. It's not a crutch - it's a tool and it's effective and I like it. I KNOW I have the ultimate control over him and he knows it, too. If I attempt to take him into this class on a flat collar, he will be so incredibly excited about it that he will drag me and we will appear to be insane. Is this a weakness of MINE that I need to correct? I'm not willing to take him into a new environment like this on a buckle, actually. He WILL pull, and pull hard, and he is strong. I'd more likely use a harness, which I've been told about again and again, that it increases the dogs desire to pull, but is more manageable by far. I am very concerned over trachea damage, so the buckle in a new scene is ... OUT.

What do you think about the response I received?

Another training class that is just two miles from home finally put their schedule online. I've emailed them three times, from different email addy's, just to get info. I promise, I wasn't "pushy." My first email inquired as to whether there were any exceptions to starting from the bottom level Obedience class. Then I thought, well, I might have come across as one of those stupid owners who thinks their dog is "all that," so the next time, I only asked about a schedule for 2012. No answer. A week or two later, I thought, how annoying!!! so I asked for the schedule again.... not one email was responded to. Is that the kind of training facility you'd want to go to even though they DO allow treats/prongs? Keeping in mind, it is apparently required to start from the bottom and the description of it:

"Beginners is a class for dogs 6 months of age and older, aimed at training you to train your dog. Emphasis is on the training needed to make the dog a good companion: walk on a loose leash, sit, stand, down, stay and come when called. Information about nutrition, grooming, crate training, problem solving, etc. is included."

I know I'll come across as a know-it-all jerk here! but we've got these things covered!!!

I took one of my other dogs here to train and it is one large room with three rings. VERY loud, very boisterious, tons of distraction... so maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. That's where I am with Bailey now -- he's pretty solid, but this training environment, with all its massive chaos, would be perhaps a pretty good proofing. (?)

The VERY first class we signed up for was horrible... they strapped a prong on Bailey when I'd never used one ever before and expected me to know, apparently thru osmosis, how to properly use it. The class session was mostly about yelling at me for doing things wrong. Well, duh?!

Then PetSmart... I strongly considered enrolling there to fill in the void time between his class ending and starting again after the New Year... only to have Selzer let me know they don't allow prongs. I stopped in and spoke with the trainer personally and she was not exactly snotty about prongs, but you could tell she didn't "approve" and said we'd have to train with a Martingale. Now why would I want to change one band aid for another?

Here's yet another response from another group class trainer that I received after a request for info:

"Training your pet should be fun, I'll show you how. You'll see a huge change in your pet in just 48 hours. And, another huge change Week 3. Plan to leave my Class with a smile on your face, and your dog’s tail wagging.

My Clients say "it's amazing", "shocking", or they "are stunned" at how much their pet puppy/dog changed after the first class. No kidding!

In my classes I address the issues of walking nicely on a leash , housebreaking/marking inappropriately, nipping, chewing, digging, and obedience training, as well as socialization (with humans, and other dogs), and lots more great doggie tips. You'll be amazed how quickly your dog will pick up my positive reinforcement training style."

REALLY? A HUGE change in my pet in 48 hours? Amazing and shocking? What kind of fluffy junk is this, anyway?

The others I've contacted represent themselves on websites as having classes, but when you email for more info, they push in-home training. I don't want in-home training. I want to move forward in Obedience in a group setting, where we have other dogs, people, distractions.

I'm coming to the belief that dog training is some kind of stupid racket.

Thanks for letting me vent. Continuing Bailey's training is super high priority to me. At this point, though, I am exceedingly, overwhelmingly, ridiculously frustrated.

All feedback very welcome.!

[PaddyD]

Large vent, short response.
I think the prong collar is a crutch.
So shoot me.

[NewbieShepherdGirl]

Come to Ames and train with me and Sasha lol Jk I know that's a bit of a drive.

I don't have a whole lot to say about most of this but I do have a comment about one thing you said:

Another training class that is just two miles from home finally put their schedule online. I've emailed them three times, from different email addy's, just to get info. I promise, I wasn't "pushy." My first email inquired as to whether there were any exceptions to starting from the bottom level Obedience class. Then I thought, well, I might have come across as one of those stupid owners who thinks their dog is "all that," so the next time, I only asked about a schedule for 2012. No answer. A week or two later, I thought, how annoying!!! so I asked for the schedule again.... not one email was responded to. Is that the kind of training facility you'd want to go to even though they DO allow treats/prongs? Keeping in mind, it is apparently required to start from the bottom and the description of it:

The place that Sasha and I will (hopefully) be training at is not very responsive to e-mailing but is pretty responsive to phone calls. Not everyone checks their e-mail very option (kind of like how it never dawns on me to check snail mail, older people sometimes aren't good about checking e-mail) so you may try contacting them over the phone if you're really interested in training there.

[NewbieShepherdGirl]

Originally Posted by PaddyD

Large vent, short response.
I think the prong collar is a crutch.
So shoot me.

I think it can be, but like anything it depends on how it's used. I trained my golden with a prong when I was showing him in 4-H because he was too strong for me, and then weaned him off of it once we had an understanding that I was in control. It was a tool I used to help me gain control. We didn't use it forever but I couldn't have done anything with him without it; he was bigger and stronger than I was.

[chelle]

Originally Posted by PaddyD

Large vent, short response.
I think the prong collar is a crutch.
So shoot me.

I will not shoot you, I will only shoot me. Actually I don't own a gun so I won't shoot anyone.

Ok, so how to get him "off" the prong then? Sure, I could go to a Martingale, but isn't that just as much of a crutch? How to get his excited behind thru the door with my shoulder and his trachea in healthy condition?

Originally Posted by NewbieShepherdGirl

Come to Ames and train with me and Sasha lol Jk I know that's a bit of a drive.

I don't have a whole lot to say about most of this but I do have a comment about one thing you said:

Another training class that is just two miles from home finally put their schedule online. I've emailed them three times, from different email addy's, just to get info. I promise, I wasn't "pushy." My first email inquired as to whether there were any exceptions to starting from the bottom level Obedience class. Then I thought, well, I might have come across as one of those stupid owners who thinks their dog is "all that," so the next time, I only asked about a schedule for 2012. No answer. A week or two later, I thought, how annoying!!! so I asked for the schedule again.... not one email was responded to. Is that the kind of training facility you'd want to go to even though they DO allow treats/prongs? Keeping in mind, it is apparently required to start from the bottom and the description of it:

The place that Sasha and I will (hopefully) be training at is not very responsive to e-mailing but is pretty responsive to phone calls. Not everyone checks their e-mail very option (kind of like how it never dawns on me to check snail mail, older people sometimes aren't good about checking e-mail) so you may try contacting them over the phone if you're really interested in training there.

I think I will get on the phone next week and make some more inquiries. Actually I am not against driving north once a week for a good class!!!!

[Emoore]

What did these people say?
Des Moines Obedience Training Club

[chelle]

Originally Posted by Emoore

What did these people say?
Des Moines Obedience Training Club

That's the one that won't answer emails, but is close to home and is a very distracting environment... but the one I'm sort of leaning towards at this point.

[Emoore]

I'd just drop in to watch a class and speak to the instructor if I were you. I've done that several times.

[Cassidy's Mom]

I have to say at his age, I agree with the no prong. I've taken nearly two dozen classes with four different dogs in the past 10+ years, and not a single one of them allowed prongs in class. You can certainly use one outside of class if you want, but I'd be working hard on engagement and focus right now, and reinforcing the behavior I wanted, and worrying about a corrective collar later. I've always done most of my at home training off leash, unless I'm specifically working on leash walking skills. It can be a challenge, but I think that forced me to learn how to keep the puppy attentive to me and interested and excited about training, and improved my training skills. Even a leash can be a crutch if it's the only thing keeping your dog from wandering off during a training session.

A regular harness can definitely encourage pulling, what I use in classes if I've got a big strong dog who is still not that great on leash is a front hook Sense-ation harness. It's similar to the Easy Walk harness, which is another option. When Halo was in the CGC prep class (she was about Bailey's age at the time, she had just turned 7 months old at the start of the class), I knew that on the last day we'd be doing the test, which could only be taken on a flat collar. So I did all my training both in class and outdoors in public places, on her flat collar. It was HARD! And at first I had a terrible time keeping her focus around all those distractions, but I persevered, and it got easier.

[StryderPup]

Why do you guys think that using a prong is a crutch? I still use a prong with Stryder and had he not had a prong when he was younger.....we would have been in bog trouble. I started with a Martingale and then my trainer gave me a prong to use...we use it on our daily walks....