I'm going to shoot myself here in Des Moines, IA if I can't find something (long)

[chelle]

Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom

You're probably pushing the difficulty too quickly. If he's at 50% that means that half the time he's broken the stay before you released him. Allowing him to do that is about the quickest way I can think of to degrade your stay, so I'm not surprised that he seems to be getting worse!

You want to reinforce that "stay" ALWAYS means to remain in place until released, and the best way to do that is to make sure he succeeds. Every time he gets up and you have to put him back, you're chipping away at his reliability. Back up a step or two, to wherever his stay was solid, and work at that level a little longer. Increase time from there in very small increments. You can also vary the time rather than making it always longer and longer and longer. If he'll reliably stay until released for 30 seconds so a bunch of random times, like 10 seconds, 25 seconds, 5 seconds, 15 seconds, etc. Be unpredictable. I like to return to the dog often to give a treat and then walk away again. I do this several times before finally releasing. Staying should be GOOD, so I want to reward in place often to reinforce that.

Thank you very much for the advice and reality check. I think I did get too ambitious because his stays were just so good. He was the one dog in class that would never break his stay -- although he had eyes on me the whole time. Eyes-on is a breeze, he never breaks one if he can see me ... so I thought, let's take it up a notch. Worked out pretty well at first, I only went out of sight for 5, 10 seconds. He kept the stay, so I would go a little longer. I was also trying to get rid of saying "stay" with a hand signal after putting him in the sit. You're right, I was trying to do too much. I'll back it down.

Originally Posted by martemchik

At 7 months old you might be jumping too far ahead...... I also suggest not pushing him and letting him fail like you do. He's too young for the out of sight stays and you might really be setting him back. I don't know what your goals are, and if you even plan on titling, but bad habits are easier prevented than trained out later on. We have a class that is "novice" and "intermediate" combined since there is not enough dogs on Tuesday, and intermediate people try to push their dogs off leash too fast and their dogs wander off. Without a quick correction the dog doesn't realize its doing something wrong by being 2 feet away from the owner.

Gotcha. I will back down on the out of sight stays, or make them very short, since I know he will hold the really short ones.

[Cassidy's Mom]

Originally Posted by chelle

Thank you very much for the advice and reality check. I think I did get too ambitious because his stays were just so good. He was the one dog in class that would never break his stay -- although he had eyes on me the whole time. Eyes-on is a breeze, he never breaks one if he can see me ... so I thought, let's take it up a notch. Worked out pretty well at first, I only went out of sight for 5, 10 seconds. He kept the stay, so I would go a little longer.

Yeah, I hear you - I like to challenge my dogs too. I'd rather push them a bit than keep doing the same thing over and over again until we're both bored out of our minds, lol!

What I would suggest is that the first time he breaks, you take that as a sign that you've gone too far too fast, and back up a step. Break it down into the smallest increments that you can and work at each level until he's reliable before increasing difficulty. Out of sight stays are much harder than with you within sight, so I'd set him up in an area where you can still be close and just duck around a corner for a second.

You probably already know that you need to work on the three "D"s separately - distance, duration, and distraction, yes? What that means is that even if he's perfect in a 3 minute stay with you two feet away you don't jump straight to expecting a perfect 3 minute stay with you across the room from him. Once you start adding distance you're going to go back to square one on duration, taking a step away then returning to reward, then two steps, then a step to the right and back, a step to the left and back, etc. And doing it all in your living room, even if you've done a ton of work on both distance and duration to the point where you can start to put them together, is going to be completely different than doing it outdoors. Even though you'll go back to the beginning each time you increase the difficulty, he'll progress faster, because he already has the general idea.

Halo has always had a great stay, in the CGC prep class she was dubbed the "stay star" by one of the other people in the class, a woman who actually worked at the facility where the class was. She was also the youngest dog in the class, at just over 7 months old. In fact, I think she's had the best stay in every class I've taken with her (not all her skills matched her stay, unfortunately, lol!), sometimes by far. But I built that slowly and carefully rather than rushing it.

[chelle]

Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom

....What I would suggest is that the first time he breaks, you take that as a sign that you've gone too far too fast, and back up a step. Break it down into the smallest increments that you can and work at each level until he's reliable before increasing difficulty. Out of sight stays are much harder than with you within sight, so I'd set him up in an area where you can still be close and just duck around a corner for a second.

You probably already know that you need to work on the three "D"s separately - distance, duration, and distraction, yes? What that means is that even if he's perfect in a 3 minute stay with you two feet away you don't jump straight to expecting a perfect 3 minute stay with you across the room from him. Once you start adding distance you're going to go back to square one on duration, taking a step away then returning to reward, then two steps, then a step to the right and back, a step to the left and back, etc. And doing it all in your living room, even if you've done a ton of work on both distance and duration to the point where you can start to put them together, is going to be completely different than doing it outdoors. Even though you'll go back to the beginning each time you increase the difficulty, he'll progress faster, because he already has the general idea.

..... But I built that slowly and carefully rather than rushing it.

Thank you.! That makes a ton of sense, I like how you worded that. As I think about this, I have been rushing it and trying to go too fast thru the steps. Mixing up the three D's too much.

[Cassidy's Mom]

Here's a more detailed writeup of how I teach stay: training issues

Good luck!

[chelle]

Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom

Here's a more detailed writeup of how I teach stay: training issues

Good luck!

Yes, thank you, great post. The best part I took from it, for us, was:

"When you start working in more distracting environments, decrease both the distance and duration and gradually work your way back up to where you were at home with no distractions."

Great info, truly taken to heart. Bails was the rock star stayer at Obed I and I have to admit, it made me very proud and happy. He broke his stay once when the trainer went thru the room stomping her feet. We came home and worked on his stay while I stomped my feet, so he was ready for that one the following week and held it.

I expect too much out of this guy. I've also not been consistent enough with solidifying one area before trying more and harder.

Anyway, thank you! Mama needs to slow down and be happy with the achievements we've made and not push quite so hard.

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by chelle

That's kind of my thinking, too. Why change to a completely different thing; harness/halter/you name it. If we go somewhere non-prong, I think we will just work even harder to accomplish it on a buckle. I'm not sure, I need to research more on these various collars and such. And I will never again in this lifetime put a choker on any dog.

Its been a while since I've needed to train a dog. My sweet baby is 9. However, last week we went stupid and added another dog to our household. She is a wild adolecent. My previous trainers all recommended choke collars and it is what I've always used. Apparently I'm way behind the times. What is wrong with choke collars and what is the recommended collar now?