My Vets, semi successful argument against All Raw meat diet???

[lone Ranger]

My 11 week old Working Dog Black Shepherd is THRIVING... Lactose free milk, 70 % meat with bone, beef - chicken- or lamb, but mostly beef. And 30% organ meat, liver-kidney-heart... Smartest I can remember of my three Shepherds, protective already, well socialized but when a steer got out he displayed natural herding instincts, barking and heading out the steer cleverly..

Yes, I am convinced the dry kibble is toxic, and the contributor of my older GSD dogs bad odor, ear problems, constant shedding, itchy, and joint problems. On this raw diet too, my 10 year old seems to be improving in only a week..

Anyway, talking with my Vet this morning for the 11 week old Pups C-5, I told him how well my 10 year old Dakota (Cody) dog was responding. He told me that the all meat protein diet was a bit of a myth, and he had a semi valid point: Even the wolves (I call it the wolf diet) even they eat the stomach and contents of their prey. Even the smaller prey is consumed with the vegetable matter in their bodies...

The Vet claims an all meat diet is hard on the older Shepherds kidneys and liver, too much protein. He has suggested supplementing with a little kibble or cooked vegetables or similar. He claims that predators eat the stomach contents of their prey.. ????

Is this a valid point, to encourage some vegetable supplements off the dinner table..???

Kind regards from the lone Ranger in Australia...

[Carriesue]

I've heard the opposite from a wolf biologist that they actually don't eat stomach contents of larger prey but I do not know it to be fact.

I do think a lot of kibble and other dog foods(and cat foods! Cats definitely do not need veggies!) have way too much veg and fruit matter. Seems to be more for us then them.

[selzer]

Oh I don't know. I think that hunting down wild game and killing and eating it for survival is hard to actually duplicate. I mean a wild dog or wolf has to stay light, agile, trim and fast to run down prey animals. Prey animals stay trim and fast running away from predators. Prey animals eat grass and brush and when they cannot get grass trees, they do not load up on corn and other grains, they are fast, where herded animals are protected and pretty much kept quietly munching away to produce fatty meats.

A wild dog might not eat for a couple of days and then gorge on very lean meat. They will often eat everything but the squeal, including bones, organs, and if there are a number of dogs feasting on a carcus, they are eating the intestines and stomach contents too. C'mon folks our dogs eat grass and grains and veggies and fruit and cat poop, goose poop, rabbit poop, and dog poop given the opportunity. I don't think they are going to turn their noses up to stomach contents, especially if there are more than one of them chowing down.

I wonder if the problems that vets see with kindey and renal failure is actually due to the fat content of the meat that we give our dogs moreso than the protein in the meat. But they do tell you to knock down the protein if there are kidney problems. They say it doesn't cause them, well the pro-RAW people generally do.

I figure the answer is somewhere in between. I think dog food gives less meat and bone meal than a dog would likely get in the wild with respect to the amount of grains/veggies/fruits -- carbs they would normally eat; but I think that the types of meat that we would give the dogs would be far higher in fat, hormones, and antibiotics than what a dog eating wild would normally eat.

I suppose you could hunt daily with your dog, walking miles and miles and on those days you get pheasant, grouse, deer, or rabbit, you could feed it to the dog raw. And on the days you bring down nothing, the dog could go without. And that might be pretty close to how a dog would eat if they were in the wild.

Now, what is the average lifespan of wild wolves, and coyotes? Is it more or less than on average kibble fed dogs? Just curious.

[SFGSSD]

RAW is the way to go IMO. Anything that will keep the dog away from the Vet is not in the Vet's best financial interest.
Organs are great to add to the diet, Chicken gizzards, Chicken liver, even beef liver.
As for veggies pure' them in liquid form and add them to the meal. Raw veggies for some reason do not digest well intact .

[GatorBytes]

Other members on the board who have studied wolves say that larger prey, the stomach contents are shaken out before eating the stomach re: acids, small prey like rodents and bunnies wouldn't yeild high veg content.

However, animals in the wild are not jabbed with vaccines and the adjuvants like aluminum and mercury and formaldhyde, nor are they dose with pesticides in their blood monthly...

So adding in a nominal amount of fruit away from meals (re: putrifaction) and juiced green leafy veg or highly processed lightly cooked - are good for ant-oxident addition to the diet...i.e. apple (no seeds and organic if keeping skins on, if not organic - peel them) pection is good for chelating heavy metals

I believe the organ meat should only be 10% and the liver at least should be organic

[onyx'girl]

The Vet claims an all meat diet is hard on the older Shepherds kidneys and liver, too much protein.

I've always thought(and have been told by a vet or two) senior dogs need a bit higher protein, similar to a pups requirement.
Protein Requirements in Senior Dogs - You Might be Surprised | Dog Star Daily
http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjseniordiets.html
I transferred my 10 yr old over to raw after eating kibble her whole life, and she was almost 15 before her body gave out. I noticed remarkable improvement in her arthritic body after changing her diet. I fed green tripe but no veggies. Her stinky breath and skin/coat were so improved and she never got hot spots again. We fought hot spots every August until her diet change.

[Lauri & The Gang]

Originally Posted by lone Ranger

My 11 week old Working Dog Black Shepherd is THRIVING... Lactose free milk, 70 % meat with bone, beef - chicken- or lamb, but mostly beef. And 30% organ meat, liver-kidney-heart...

Heart is not an organ - it's muscle meat. I wouldn't feed milk as dogs don't need it once they are weaned.

Anyway, talking with my Vet this morning for the 11 week old Pups C-5, I told him how well my 10 year old Dakota (Cody) dog was responding. He told me that the all meat protein diet was a bit of a myth, and he had a semi valid point: Even the wolves (I call it the wolf diet) even they eat the stomach and contents of their prey. Even the smaller prey is consumed with the vegetable matter in their bodies...

With large prey animals the wolves, if not starving, will shake out the stomach contents since they are rather acidic. If the carnivores are low on food they will eat everything.

With small prey animals the stomach contents are consumed because the stomach is small and dogs don't take time to remove it - they just eat the whole thing.

The Vet claims an all meat diet is hard on the older Shepherds kidneys and liver, too much protein.

My girl Neke lived to 14.5 on a raw diet with NO veggies or anything non-meat related - except the occasional green tripe.

Green tripe is about as close to the stomach contents of prey as you can get.

As for it being too much protein - it's not. A raw diet does not mean high protein. In fact, it's been shown that the protein in a raw diet is much easier for dogs - especially older ones - to process.

[Lauri & The Gang]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

I've always thought(and have been told by a vet or two) senior dogs need a bit higher protein,

It's not so much a higher 'amount' of protein - it's a higher QUALITY. You want it to be as bio-available (easy for the dog's system to process) as possible so they get the most out of their food.

[SFGSSD]

Laurie,
How do you feel about supplements
Flaxseed oil, vitamin E, vitamin C (This one is said to help with stress, no idea if it is true) do you feel supplements are necessary or do you feel it is a myth and over rated? Is there value in the supplements? Is there value in veggies?


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[DunRingill]

So an all-meat diet is supposedly hard on an older dog's liver and kidneys? Doesn't seem to be negatively affecting Ianna at all. She's 14 years 9 months and has been on a raw diet her whole life. She can still hear a bit (some selective deafness ), can still see, is still mischievous, and can still get around OK tho she needs a boost sometimes.