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Old 12-02-2012, 12:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Msvette, thank you for your thoughts. But I believe if you read carefully my posts you'll see that I don't disagree with you at all. You'll also see we discarded the advice after the one attempt. So that part of your advice is redundant. But thank you nonetheless.
You are welcome...but I also kind of wanted to make the point that this trainer, with bizarre beliefs like that, may indeed steer you down many wrong paths.

If you're happy with her, that's great - do go ahead and check out the "Mind Games" link to get an understanding of how we are naturally these dogs' leaders, by the sheer fact we have opposable thumbs, and feed and get them water.

The leader of the "pack" controls resources...which is why the Mind Games techniques call for no "free feeding" (leaving food down for the dog 24/7). You control food, water, space (crating or leashing the dog), and the "good spots" to sleep.
All of this lends to the mindset of the dog that you are indeed the leader.

Doing exercises like you describe, or holding/pinning the dog down, etc. are all debunked theories to establish "dominance".
Not that you did these things, but a trainer who believes you have to get down and "guard" the food bowl from your dog will eventually get around to pinning and other weirdness like that.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:04 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Yeah it's good to hear my thoughts on feeding are correct. We've always kept his food bowl off the ground and make sure he sees us give him the food when we put it down. We do leave the water bowl down, because Thats how they cool themselves down, but he We always have him sit, calm down, and wait for a release to eat or drink. not so much with the water. usually he is calm enough since its done more frequently. we do a decent job controling space, but offer up thoughts to improve if you think its needed. we keep him next to us at all times but only attach a leash to the couch if were doing chores. That has become his play area. Outdoors is always leashed, but we allow him to run around unleashed when we have complete control of the area. We've been crating him since day 1 at night and started out at taking him out every two hours at night.(we got him at 7 weeks, a week early I know)and increased it by 30 minutes over time. Now we're down to once a night. So hopefully within the next 2 weeks or so his bladder will be strong enough to go all night.house breaking is going fine. 4 accidents total, 2 were our fault.

Msvette, I whole heartedly agree that our nature and ability as humans endows us the ability to convey our leadership just through using our thumbs and being who we are. I am excited to read the article because I am always interested to learn ways to gain ground with a dog by doing things I naturally do. My father is a psychiatrist and I'm a marine, so I'm all about understanding the mind and using it to my advantage to be a leader. Manipulative, yes, but I'm good at it, and it works. I appreciate your opposition to the trainer, I would be a fool to listen to only one person and take their word as gold. Question everything, but act confidently. So thank you again.

Again, the food bowl thing was a one time event, but I understand that's all it takes. But she's had us play with his ears while he eats, pet him, tug his skin lightly to avoid food aggression later on. Allowing him to eat of course all the while, but giving him a touching sensation that is just enough to not disturb him but get him used to people being near him while he eats...from a young age. Much to your surprise I'm sure, she did recommend the snout pinning, but lightly. The idea she's used for 15 years and has worked for her dogs is that dogs have pressure points on the snout in a certain location, and as pups, the mother will lightly press to discourage behavior she doesn't agree with. Not much pressure but enough to get the point across and only up to about 9 or 10 weeks. And she only recommends it be used to discourage one behavior....using teeth on humans, in any manner.

The two cities police departments my house is in between recommended her. Because she can train ScHH and just family dogs, among other AKC titled events.

That being said, I still won't be devolving down to all fours again for a pecking order. It will just be simply that I provide the pecking order.

Gbchottu, if you want I can type you up a good essay on effective leadership. I've had my methods tested by the worlds greatest fighting force. . But I would be foolish and wouldn't be exhibiting good leadership if I didn't keep an open mind and be accepting of new ideas. So thank you for your thoughts. You make an especially valid point by saying a solid pack leader doesn't resort to unfair corrections and that a dog should be able to gain confidence from their leader and as with any follower should want and be able to gain guidance from the leader. Very valid points, so thank you. But do not presume I lack the knowledge or experience to be that leader. You would be mistaken to believe so, nonetheless thank you again, very good points. I will keep my ears open for more advice.

Also, just out of curiosity to carm, or anyone that knows, why feed where they sleep? Comfort? Familiarization? I know he's a baby and all but. Without meeting him, some commenters act as if he's defenseless, and sensitive......Gunner is neither of those things. He is very content and is to a degree spoiled with the love he gets in our family. But only spoiled in love, and we want that. Not spoiled in obedience terms, or bratty, or in ways that would encourage him to feel like he calls the shots.

Thanks again for all thoughts.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:29 PM   #13 (permalink)
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no , leave the dog alone when eating , your trainer is promoting problems -- ". But she's had us play with his ears while he eats, pet him, tug his skin lightly to avoid food aggression later on" Digestion happens best when there is no stress !!!!! Eat on the run , while multi-tasking , late , see what happens . I think you have real life experience .
oh no "The idea she's used for 15 years and has worked for her dogs is that dogs have pressure points on the snout in a certain location, and as pups, the mother will lightly press to discourage behavior she doesn't agree with. Not much pressure but enough to get the point across and only up to about 9 or 10 weeks. And she only recommends it be used to discourage one behavior....using teeth on humans, in any manner."
I have twice the years experience and have put in dozens of dogs into police programs , including heavy duty maximum prison canines , rcmp, personal protection for business leaders, recording artists , etc , therapy , SAR , and so on and so forth and have never employed any of the nonsense your training is advicing , I mean never , and never will in future . Look what is possible All Things "Dog": POST 1 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and the Perfect Companion --- this dog MAY already have a placement in service --- here you can see good leadership AND the dog has choice , and THINKS , uses intelligence to make the choice . Your example of the leadership in a fighting force may be, no make that stronger, is necessary in that situation , there is no choice for dissension or alternative , which can lead to disastrous results, as can the unquestionable following of orders . In your military example there are severe , harsh , penalties for not following orders , that to maintain order . Both "sides" used it , for good or evil .
I don't feed where they sleep ? They eat where ever I give food , which may be a chicken frame tossed into the field , dog finds it , brings it to eat under shade of tree while I pluck weeds (won't win that one)
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The only reason to approach the food bowl while your dog is eating- is to throw yummy(ier) food into it.
If feeding kibble, toss some nice cooked chicken in it. This is how to create a dog that is comfortable with you approaching it's food bowl.

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Old 12-02-2012, 02:49 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Poor little guy. He's 3 months old - a baby. It is up to you to show him the right way to do things, take it slow and to be patient with him. Lots of pups are finicky eaters, but I agree with Carmen. Crate him during feedings, put the food down, wait 30 mins, pick up what is left. That's all. No healthy dog will starve itself. If you want to add extras into his food, that is fine, but be aware that this can create or encourage a picky eater even more.


According to gb you do. If you say you don't fine, but you may want to correct him.

I'm actually good at all of those things and more simultaneously.

The only correction we use now, is no.

We only pet him and such while eating every so often, it's not an every time thing. So don't assume so. He doesn't seem phased at all by it. He happily eats, and his tail is wagging the same it does when we don't .

An update...he has eaten all day without issue, in one setting, without coaxing, and appears to have become comfortable eating again. We will continue to monitor.

Since no response I. Controlling space, food, time, etc. I will assume there is no issue. Thank you again for your experienced advice
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Msvette, an interesting video. Gunner has never shown any aggression at all however. He's always been as happy as can be (before the trainer tip and food transition which happened almost simultaneously, hence the confusion) in any situation or with anyone near. The reasoning for the handling during feeding is preventative in nature
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I know, MD, the problem is, petting and handling during feeding can create tension and stress where there was none before.
It would be a good idea to do the "cure" as a prevention, instead of merely handling and touching the dog.

We have a dog rescue. You'd be amazed at how many owners, despite their good intentions, create food aggression/guarding, by touching the dog while it eats.

So set the food down and walk off, giving the dog *no* reason to feel it must guard.
Then walk by and drop yummy boiled chicken or pieces of steak, even microwaved slices of hot dog would work.

You then make the dog feel happy and look forward to you coming near it's bowl, instead of making it tense and uncomfortable while it eats.

Try it for a few days and I bet you see a whole new dog when you approach it's bowl
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MDPatterson View Post
Carm suggested it would never work at all. Under any circumstance it would seem. I was simply asserting that in fact there are times when that thought process works. It worked for me.
There are a lot of techniques that "work", or at least seem to at the time - the fallout from some may not show up right away, but that doesn't mean they're a good idea or that something else won't work even better.

Creating trust issues means that there's going to be a problem you'll have to deal with down the road a ways, and a lot of food or resource guarding techniques can backfire and create trust issues. On the other hand, creating TRUST is a foundation you can build on, with many things that have nothing to do with food or feeing time.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:08 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I will try it out msvette, thank you. It should be easy because we only employ our method once or twice every other day. My point in saying that is to assure you we will try it because there would be no harm done to our method. So thank you again. And I do see your logic and will consider it.

And I hope this doesn't get taken as argueing. Think of it more as me testing my logic against yours, and the one that holds strong does just that. So no malice intended just testing your logic and who knows I might buy it. But we've done about 4 times total since he was 10 weeks (12 weeks now) but we've pulled the bowl away mid meal and just held it and looked at him. He just looks back and after a second sits, like he's waiting patiently and calmly to be fed again. Any thoughts to that? Or do you still have an argument against our method? All advice is welcome. Thank you again.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Cassidy you are correct about things happening later down the road on accident and that there are many techniques to Build trust outside of feeding, and i use them. but this issue was only in regard to feeding. You've also used my quote and not understood its meaning. And then wrote a response to something I wasn't referring to. Carm made an all encompassing comment about strictness and micro managing not being effective as it applies in carms opinion to everything. I was simply saying that it worked very well for me and my upbringing. No mention of anything regarding a dog there. But thank you nonetheless for your thoughts.
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