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Old 04-07-2010, 11:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default TOO Much Protein??

Alright. Looking for some clarification here. I have read and done my research about all the food threads on here about what to feed Cash (10wks). I am feeding Blue Buffalo and was planning a switch to Wellness 5 LB Puppy.

My vet, however, said not to feed either of those because they contain TOO MUCH protein. She suggested Science Diet.

This contradicts everything I've read on here and I told her that, but she said definitely not.

My question is...is there truth to this? I am looking for an answer other than "Well she gets kickbacks for promoting Science Diet". She has to know what she's talking about...no?
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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IMO No, there is no truth to it. There are studies that show puppies actually need more protein during their growth period and in fact, protein deficiency is more dangerous. The old myth that high protein diets cause kidney damage in healthy dogs has finally been addressed and one must consider the "quality" of the protein, not the "quantity". When feeding a puppy, the caloric density of the food is of great significance as it relates to skeletal growth. The first article by a nutritionist explains these issues quite well specifically relating to pups. As you probably know, there is a lot of information out there, so here is just a couple of my favorites. But, I have to say, the truth about our vets is that generally the only knowledge of nutrition is received from the sales reps. and they do sadly benefit from sales in their practice. I learned the hard way, that although the vet may truly appear to love animals, it doesn't always mean they can advise what may be the best for them. Second opinions are wonderful things!

You are wise for questioning and even wiser for doing your own reading to decide what you think is best.

PS I will refrain from my personal comments on Science Diet as I'm sure you can guess what they would be lol!

http://www.hilarywatson.com/puppies.pdf

The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?

Dogs and Protein | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I, myself, would not want to feed Science diet. As mentioned, some vets are "in bed" so to speak with some food companies and reps. Like medicine, there are the workings we are not privy to between practioners and company reps and it often influences medical providers recommendations.

From what I have been able to learn a high quality protein diet is not bad for a puppy. It used to be the conventional wisdom. Many high protein foods are not suitable for large breed pups. But, this is not because of the protein but rather calcium and phosphorus levels. So, sure there are some high protein kibbles not recommended for growing pups. When the minerals are at correct puppy levels, the protein itself helps to build a strong pup.

Here is a good, short article:

Large Breed Puppy Food Skeptvet.com
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:40 PM   #4 (permalink)
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OMG. SCIENCE DIET?! That's one of the worst foods out there!

Ask your vet to produce published, reputable, scientific journal articles on this. Good luck.

I've found that very few vets--for whatever reason--know what they are talking about in the nutrition realm. Or they are just greedy. Whatever the reason, that is one topic vets do NOT know what they are talking about.

Either way, Wellness 5 doesn't even have that much protein. According to both companys' websites, Wellness 5 Puppy has LESS protein than Science Diet Puppy Dry food.

Puppy Large Breed - Dry

Wellness Complete Health® Super5Mix® Just for Puppy

Your vet needs an education on nutrition.

ETA: Just realized I didn't provide the link for the LBP for Wellness 5. But that's even lower at 26%.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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When I got Sinister the breeder had him on Purina Pro Plan so as soon as I got him home I started researching for a better brand of food because Purina is not a good brand.

When I took him to the Vet for the first time and signed him up with the Puppy Package they gave me a free bag of Science Diet . I threw it away. That food to me is like garbage, I wouldn't want to eat it so I wouldn't want my boy to eat it.

I chose to go with Solid Gold Wolf Cub for my boy when he was a puppy. It slows down their growth rate so they dont grow too big too fast, alot of brands speed up their growth and it is not good for them at all. Wolf Cub was great for him, he absolutely loved it! His fur was very bright and soft and shiny, he looked great! We recommended it to several of our friends and they also loved it.

Now he is a year old and we put him on Blue Wilderness Duck Recipe. So far so good!
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Thanks. Hmmm...I compared the protein values in the 3 foods and you guys are correct.

Blue Buffalo LB Puppy - 28%
Wellness 5 LB Puppy - 26%
Hill's Science Diet LB Puppy - 31.3%

I'm not sure where her information came from.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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What is even worse about Science Diet is the quality of the protein. It is mostly from corn. The protein in corn (corn gluten meal) is very difficult for dogs to digest. Most proteins from meat are at 76-90% on the protein digestibility scale or protein value scale. Corn is at 40%. This overworks the kidneys. This is where the idea of too much protein came from. Its the quality of the protein that is more important than the quantity and corn protein is nowhere near the quality of meats. Meats are the only complete proteins, containing all of the essential amino acids and in the correct proportions. How can veterinarians push this crap with a clear conscience? I know they don't study nutrition in vet school but they have to know how bad this stuff is. The "animal fat" is almost as bad and there are no fruits and vegetables that are present in most quality foods.
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Old 04-08-2010, 10:54 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milkmoney11 View Post
Thanks. Hmmm...I compared the protein values in the 3 foods and you guys are correct.

Blue Buffalo LB Puppy - 28%
Wellness 5 LB Puppy - 26%
Hill's Science Diet LB Puppy - 31.3%

I'm not sure where her information came from.

the old studies did conclude that higher protein levels were detrimental with 2 caveats:

1)the proteins used were from low quality sources (ie non meat)
2) the subjects were rodents

so, now you have a vet recommending a higher protein food with a bunch of low quality, non meat protein sources over a food with a bit lower protein where certainly more of the protein is from actually meat product. talk about a vet being uninformed and/or beholden to the mighty Hills conglomerate.

even raw fed pups are eating protein levels above 40% (when converted to a dry matter basis), but again that protein is from quality meat sources.
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Old 04-09-2010, 01:57 AM   #9 (permalink)
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All of this is very controverial. From my years of raising GSD's & Goldens for a local guide dog school and my own research the issue is bone growth problems like Pano or OCD. Some large breed puppy and adult food manufactures think high protein and lower fat is the answer. Some think Lower protein and higher fat is the answer and the All Life Stage foods like 26-24 protein and 16-14 fat. I only had 1 large male with Pano while feeding Eukanuba puppy in 1986. All the other dogs we raised both GSD's and a Goldens plus my own Lab & Goldens all were fed adult foods from 5 months old. Never had another case of Pano. The guide dog school now feeds CANIDAE All Life Stage 24/14.5. No bone growth problems that I know of. I am personally not a fan of Large Breed Puppy or adult foods as I think they are to expensive and only just a marketing gimmick. With in reason lower is better than to high protein.
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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for all the internet rumor and mythology on the internet about high protein being bad for large breed pups growth and causing kidney issues, it is interesting that there is not a single study that confirms any of it.

so, i dont see this as controversial at all. the only thing that has been pretty well established is that excess Ca levels will cause growth issues in large breed pups. i have seen calculations estimating raw fed dogs eat a diet closer to 45%-50% protein when converted to a dry matter basis, and you will see very few people trying to argue a biologically appropriate raw diet is unsafe for pups. a higher protein diet where the protein is from quality meat sources will generally be lower in carbohydrates.

personally, i think a dry dog food with around 24% protein simply will not have alot of meat product in it and will have more grains and/or potato than are necessary for a canine. that is not to say canidae, innova, wellness at 24% protein versus iams, purina, and the like at 24% protein will have protein coming from the same sources. im sure more of the protein comes from meat sources in the former than the latter.

my opinion is that a higher protein diet with the proper balance of nutrient levels is preferable, and much closer to natural, over a lower protein diet. also consider that some of the nutritional value of meat product (as well as other product) would be expected to be lost during the processing of commercial kibbles.
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