I was going to buy a prong. Then an acquaintance of my handed over one he bought and never used.
I have watched the videos, read everything I could find. I was careful to fit it properly and keep it in the right place. It doesn't slide, slip or move. It sits right under her jaw, chain directly behind her ears. I attached the leash and went through the teaching her to yield to it and worked on it in our basement playroom.
Then I sucked up my positive attitude and headed out. Got to the gate, she tried to pull through, I corrected and the fight was on.
She yelped first which made my stomach turn, but I was told to expect it. Then she went rodeo on me. She tried to back out of it, she threw herself on the ground, she tried grabbing the leash, she barked at me, she tried pawing it off. I just let her fight and tried not to put pressure on the leash.
She gave up fairly quick and we proceeded out on our walk. She isn't giving me much attention, but she walked nicely on a loose leash and showed some respect. We passed a bird, she looked but kept walking. We worked on some obedience and she was quick and responsive. After 20 minutes I was feeling pretty good. Then we saw the dog.
I kept walking gave her a couple of reminders, and should have been warned by her compliance I guess.
She doesn't care about corrections when other dogs are involved apparently. The other dog was ignoring her, not adding any fuel.
To be fair her response was limited to barking this time, and I managed to put her in a sit and keep her there. But when we were still walking, she lunged, I corrected and she went nuts. Up on her back feet, air snapping and snarling, diving and lunging. It was only when I put her in a sit that she came in off the ledge.
I think I waited to long to correct her? Either way clearly that backfired. Her response was worse then normal.
One thing stands out to me. You just put it on and went out to see what would happen. If you're going to work on something or introduce something like the collar, it needs to be controlled and done in a way that you can do one thing at a time. I would have gone through some introduction time with the collar and no distractions first. This is something to think about.
Sounds like it. My DA pit bull would get more revved up and reactive if I gave a physical correction while he was in the zone so to speak.
Pain and adrenaline just put him more into drive. I physically could not give him a hard enough correction to get him out of it. I had to correct for showing any interest in other dogs period. He didn't get to look at them.
Watching every video and reading every book doesn't really prepare you for the real thing. Next time more work inside and then don't give the dog so much room to dart and discover a hard pop on his own before he's ready.
I kinda missed what I was trying to say Sabis mom. More along the lines of what Baillif is saying, teaching her to yield to a tight line whether its a prong or not isn't the same as a pop. The feeling on her neck, the emotion from you, the physical action of it all is different in her perception.
adding to what the others have said... there's also no need to suck up your positive attitude - if I'm understanding you correctly. my attitude when working my dogs is the same whether I have a clicker and treats or a prong collar on. my goal for all training sessions is to be fun, upbeat, positive and engaging. dogs live in the moment... if the need comes to correct them, I do what I need to get their focus back on me, then return to the positive as quickly as possible. no anger, frustration, grudges or anything.
I never leave my house expecting or looking for the opportunity or reason to correct. engagement and rewards is always a priority.
adding to what the others have said... there's also no need to suck up your positive attitude - if I'm understanding you correctly. my attitude when working my dogs is the same whether I have a clicker and treats or a prong collar on. my goal for all training sessions is to be fun, upbeat, positive and engaging. dogs live in the moment... if the need comes to correct them, I do what I need to get their focus back on me, then return to the positive as quickly as possible. no anger, frustration, grudges or anything.
I never leave my house expecting or looking for the opportunity or reason to correct. engagement and rewards is always a priority.
Fodder, I have some issues that make being out and about uncomfortable.
When I add the fact that Shadow explodes in a blink, and that she has done permanent damage to my shoulder with her foolishness, yes I need to suck up a positive attitude. Not perhaps in the sense that you are thinking but in that I need to muster all my spirit as it were, because I don't want to get upset and have her feeding off that.
Well I am sure there might be better ways to do this but I am introducing it to my puppy on a double ended lead, one clipped to his regular collar. That way if he loses it over something or charges out and I don't want him to hit the prong that hard, I can catch him on the flat collar and then correct him on the prong if I need to at whatever level I choose vs his just hitting the collar full force. What you described was exactly what I didn't want my puppy to do
I have been working him in low distraction environments and actually haven't had to catch him with the flat, but it does make me feel better knowing I could.
He isn't reactive to other dogs but just recently realized how big and strong he is and did rear up like an idiot flailing around when we passed my neighbor's dog (that he knows and plays with) this is obviously not acceptable behavior, he was just being a fool and he will do the same thing on his head halter so I knew it was time to kind of lay down the law and let him know his little rearing routine won't fly with me. I think he learned it because she ran up to him offleash once and they started trying to play while I was walking him.
I took him to the park where I can see other dogs coming and put the right amount of space where he gets a little excited but not too stupid and I can let him know with the prong that he can't be throwing his weight around with me.
Patience and practice. It takes a while to learn how to use one. I make sure my dog understands what it's going to feel like when he gets to the end of the leash. We used it in the yard with no distractions for about a week before I tried it on a walk. I also use it in obedience, in a controlled environment.
Let me clear up a few things though.
I have been using it for 3 days in the basement and the yard. I didn't just 'slap it on and go'.
I never let her run to the end of the leash and figure it out herself. She was walking nicely beside me on a few inches of slack.
I am fairly sure that I misread her initial compliance when she saw the dog and waited to long to correct, because when she saw the bird she looked but didn't react.
I will go back to just the yard for now, and keep trying.
I don't have access to a trainer at the moment, she isn't spayed so no one around here will work with her. So I read and watch, because that's all I can do. I realize that it isn't a perfect system but it's all I have.
Let me clear up a few things though.
I have been using it for 3 days in the basement and the yard. I didn't just 'slap it on and go'.
I never let her run to the end of the leash and figure it out herself. She was walking nicely beside me on a few inches of slack.
I am fairly sure that I misread her initial compliance when she saw the dog and waited to long to correct, because when she saw the bird she looked but didn't react.
I will go back to just the yard for now, and keep trying.
I don't have access to a trainer at the moment, she isn't spayed so no one around here will work with her. So I read and watch, because that's all I can do. I realize that it isn't a perfect system but it's all I have.
You seem to already realize your mistake (late timing) but for others the potential problem with "Prongs" ... put drive in or take drive out it got elaborated on by Slamdunc:
Some trainers have seen people struggle with "Prong Collar" corrections even with eyes on instructions and "apparently" decided "screw it" just use a Pet Convincer" :
First, I can appreciate the frustration as I have been down the path of dealing with a reactive dog.....it was a new experience for me and I made myself vulnerable to all the "fixes" and the "guarantees" many trainers offered.
Because of my basic nature....I pursued the least aversive methods first....these methods may work on a very mild reactive dog but didn't seem to be the ticket for me and my dog...so I proceeded to the next method and "guarantees"....basically about the same story....some improvement but still not acceptable as far as I was concerned. I even compromised my "basic nature" and did the e-collar method ....once again...some improvement but still not what I was willing to accept as a final solution. Actually, the biggest improvements in her reactivity came through all the obedience work we did...the more obedient she was....the easier it was to keep her check with her reactivity....made sense to me. But, still not there yet,
My good fortune brought me across a gentleman ...a retired LE K9 handler who still trains LE dogs....I told him my story and he took me under his wing....he had me attend some K9 training sessions and worked with me during their lunch breaks. This is where I was introduced to the dominant dog collar and the proper way to use it for dog reactivity. I have found the answer as the two trainers who deal with me seriously know the breed and how to deal with this issue....plus it's great being around a bunch of high drive dogs which most all of them had similar reactivity issues as mine earlier on in their training...if not a ton more. Being in that environment was living proof...the "guarantee" was right there in front of my eyes.
Now to bore you more...some observations and realizations. My use of the prong to correct this problem most likely was just ramping the dog up unless I caught the dog well before she was about to light up. The correction from a prong if she was full on...would probably need to be more severe than I was providing...and worse yet..when I would get closer to that level...I was anything but calm and composed....my emotions were running high as well...it was a lose/lose situation. The use of the dominant dog collar and application is entirely different......no yanking...none...just steady upward pressure AND in doing this....it had an effect on me...I was keeping my cool....
I had heard in here at times thoughts such as ..." a few potent well-timed corrections is infinitely better than many ineffective lesser corrections"....I understand that now...I obviously didn't then. Yeah, I might annoy my dog using lesser prong pops at times but it isn't to deal with issues like reactivity...more just to keep the dog in line with obedience skills if she is having an off day.
I also remember Slamdunc stating that most handlers think their dogs are more severe in their reactivity than they truly are.....this I have found to be true in my situation...I base it on the fact that the amount of full corrections I have had to use with the DDC is incredibly less than any other method previous......I'm talking like a total of 6-10 full uses of the DDC to date...and the results are better than all the rest of the methods combined...yeah, much of it could have been handler error on my behalf but I was under the tutelage of "professional" trainers...that's the excuse I'm going with:grin2:
Just a suggestion, if you could check around with your local LE and find out who or where they get their K9 training done...it might open some doors and help you out tremendously. I know they aren't necessarily in the business of training JQP's dogs....but if you are lucky enough to find something like I did....I'd give it a try. Like I said above....these folks truly know the breed and know their training and they don't patronize you or sugarcoat your failings in the process...I like this fact.....plus they are incredibly nice people...especially to ones with GSDs and Mals.
Oh my, I do understand. My Sting would have been just as bad but finished off his antics with one mighty lunge that would have pulled the leash out of my hands (easy with his 126 lbs to my 100 lbs) and got to the other dog. There are no trainers in my area so I have to learn like you do. Lucky for me, my neighbor whose lab/pointer is a handful told me she uses a front ring harness. So I researched them. The harness and method I have been using for over 5 years is the Walk In Sync by Colorado trainer Alecia Evans https://dogwalkinsync.com/ She developed the method and harness because her first dog, a big lab, was a strong puller. The harness and leash also includes free videos to show how to use it. I had nothing to lose as it comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. My Sting isn't a puller but a lunger - one second sitting so nicely, the next second lunge . It did work. When he saw another dog - the harness seemed to push him back - actually it is based on the theory that a dog does not want to push against something - since his impulse to lunge was checked I could then either turn suddenly or if that wasn't possible - have him sit. I don't have to worry about timing corrections or if they are too hard or too light. To me it is like using a hackamore on a horse instead of a severe bit. It works for me and so, I just wanted to suggest it is another alternative.
Shadow is not mildly reactive. And she isn't playing. In response to another dog I get pulling, lunging, snarling, frothing at the mouth. She will pull hard enough to literally be almost on her side trying to get at them. She will flip herself completely over. I had thought when she was younger maybe it was just excitement, nope. Thank goodness she was muzzled. I found out she could walk, and jog, backwards when I tried the 'just keep walking'. She has focus.
I have been using an easywalk harness, but she can snake her way out of it.
I stopped using a choke when she choked herself unconscious.
I tried a halti, but I was concerned about neck damage when she starts flipping around. Because if you control the head you control the horse, I thought it seemed plausible that the same was true for dogs. Not.
I taught her not to chase cars using an empty pop can with some rocks in it. I tied it to her leash just a few inches from her. Every time she lunged it rattled and snapped her out of it. It worked well, and fast. But with dogs it just made her angrier.
So the prong was sort of do or die for us. I will keep working in the yard and try to master this.
It did apparently work to stop the bird chasing, so clearly the hunting of birds is just a game. The hunting of dogs is life or death.
Shadow is not mildly reactive. And she isn't playing. In response to another dog I get pulling, lunging, snarling, frothing at the mouth. She will pull hard enough to literally be almost on her side trying to get at them. She will flip herself completely over
Sounds just like how my girl was.....pretty intimidating and certainly sending her best signals to the other dog.....you don't want to mess with me attitude no doubt. Has she ever come up the leash at you during her antics? or blindly bitten you during her bouts of directed aggression at the other dog?
I didn't choose my words very well, I was hunting around for that video. My only point was the leash pressure stuff really doesn't have much to do with the way you went out to use the collar. If you were going to go that route with it, which to me seems like a waste of time, you needed to stick with that use.
That video shows a pretty simple intro to the entire action of a correction. You can end up with the collar itself not being that important. A fursaver will get the same reaction from your dog as a prong or anything else. The total picture of it will keep it clear for her.
I didn't choose my words very well, I was hunting around for that video. My only point was the leash pressure stuff really doesn't have much to do with the way you went out to use the collar. If you were going to go that route with it, which to me seems like a waste of time, you needed to stick with that use.
That video shows a pretty simple intro to the entire action of a correction. You can end up with the collar itself not being that important. A fursaver will get the same reaction from your dog as a prong or anything else. The total picture of it will keep it clear for her.
I did watch the video, thanks for that. I will watch it a few more times tonight. I get the concept. I just thought it was 'nicer' to let her know what she the prong was.
Sounds just like how my girl was.....pretty intimidating and certainly sending her best signals to the other dog.....you don't want to mess with me attitude no doubt. Has she ever come up the leash at you during her antics? or blindly bitten you during her bouts of directed aggression at the other dog?
Yes. She will redirect. It's funny though, she nailed me good a few times and I responded not well. Even freaking out, she will now temper her snaps at me to something that stings but doesn't do damage. But on the whole she has no problem biting people.
I tried the ecollar a few years back. I screwed up and she got collar wise. If I put one on her even now, she just glues herself to me and will not leave. I over did the recall training because it seemed inconceivable to me that she got it in two tries. This dog is smart. Really smart. And she has me totally trained.:frown2:
It's funny how different dogs react differently to a prong. For instance I only put on the prong when doing Fus training, and for the most part just to keep Judith from straying off, or pulling while trying to Fus. She's a very calm pup, and my trainer says she has great focus, so I've never experienced her trying to pull against the prong collar even once.
I'd suggest trying the e-collar again, except layer it over leash pressure and corrections this time and leave it on her for a few days if you have to get her un-collar wise. I don't do the low stim stuff with the e-collar, I use it as a correction, once the dog knows and understands corrections and the command I'm pairing it with.
I described Shadow as a sweet, smart dog with no coping skills.
Even mild, harmless stimulus gets a completely over the top reaction.
I have never believed and still don't that this is an aggressive dog. Or a dog that is a waste. I believe that this is a dog who honestly believes that she is in mortal danger from other dogs and is going on the offensive, fighting for her life in her mind. I hesitated over the prong because I didn't want to add to that sense of fear with a painful correction.
But...
If I can't control her, we are at a standstill. I need to be able to walk her to convince her no harm will come to her and in order to walk her I need to be able to control her.
Again, I have owned this dog literally all her life. I have studied her and watched her reactions all her life. She is genuinely afraid. I have no doubt that in the hands of a better person she could be something spectacular. Catch 22. In the hands of a more experienced person she may well have been put down that first night, and maybe I did her a disservice by keeping her alive, but that ship has sailed. I love this little dog beyond all reason, have from the second I first held her in my hands.
So here we are, doing the best we can.
You're right, if you can't control her you can't do anything with her on leash. Since you can't seem to find a trainer who will work with you or an unspayed dog, I'll share what we paid to find out. I hope you can use it. Our puppy was leash reactive due to my mistakes. When he was very young, I didn't correct him because I was trying to use positive training. Big mistake. I also didn't remove him from scary situations because I didn't realize what triggered fear. He didn't seem fearful he seemed confused, so I thought more exposure would help. But I let him get too close to his triggers without giving him an escape route.
The trainer said to flood him with so many dogs he couldn't react to them all in a crowded place with exit routes. We went to a popular dog walking park with a lot of empty spaces. I watched for him to start to react, and immediately turned around and walked away toward an area with no dogs. Every time he began to react, I removed the threat. I did that for almost two hours. Then I found a dog he liked, to walk with us. That solved the problem and he gained confidence. It's not a one time solution, we still do this desensitizing on a regular basis.
Why aren't you using a trainer? We can only help so much on a message board. When you don't know how to use a training tool and your dog is acting out, the only solution is a good trainer who can observe you and your dog and help you figure out the best way to teach her that other dogs are not a threat.
Why aren't you using a trainer? We can only help so much on a message board. When you don't know how to use a training tool and your dog is acting out, the only solution is a good trainer who can observe you and your dog and help you figure out the best way to teach her that other dogs are not a threat.
Because even if I had the money to pay for a trainer, the trainers in this area mostly fall into two groups. Clicker or teach her who's boss. And the first thing they all say is get her spayed then come back. I have been told that she is just poorly bred and should be put down, I have been told to get rid of her, I have even been offered a replacement.
I just wonder if you work really hard on consistency and clarity that you won't get her through the adjustment period. I think that she did not generalize the work you did inside with the prong to going to the outside. It was as if it was a brand new thing to her. (Dogs are bad at generalizing on their own) I just wonder about staging some walks with a friends' dogs at a distance that you can help her get used to the idea of "behave and do your job or get a correction."
Consistency and persistence.
I have a rescue GSD that has a pretty strong fight or flight reaction. Pretty dramatic when she is scared. We have worked with an ecollar and initially she freaked. I kept her at low stim and she got used to it. I know it was not hurting her (at a 8 or 10 I can stim myself and barely feel it). She wears a bark collar when I'm not here and she has access to the outside. It is at the lowest stim level. First couple of times it totally freaked her out. Now she takes the collar fine and at times barks through the stim but doesn't do that incessant barking. She is fine now with it. Just kept with it because she needs to do her job.
One other thing I thought of is that the cheap chinese made prongs are a bit sharp. I would only work with a Herm Sprenger. The prongs are not sharp and the quality is so much better. Those cheap ones scare me.
The comments have been repeated numerous times Super G.
We will continue to work with the prong, I will keep trying to get better at it. We went for a walk today and did ok. But no other dogs appeared. I won't give up on her, she isn't giving up on me.
Couple more short sessions today. Mostly in the yard, working on paying attention. She did good. All the birds flying around and she stayed focused on me. Went for a little tour around the block. Worked on her ignoring people, she still wants to watch them, ears are flicking, but she kept her eyes forward and stayed on a loose leash by my side.
It amazes me that she can split her focus like that. I can't trick her with direction changes or speed changes, but she is clearly paying attention to the person walking behind us.
In the yard, I get her to focus by tucking a toy under my arm and she does fantastic off leash. But I haven't been able to translate that to outside the gate, obviously on leash.
Leerburg has online classes & one is leash reactivity with Tyler Muto, which I believe instructs you on using both the prong and e collar for this problem.
I'm pretty sure there isn't an interactive one coming up where you actually send in your video for critique, but self study costs less and might give you some new skills?
You aren't over your head. You're just hunting around looking for a fix. Stick with obedience. You tell her to sit, she has to sit. Eventually no matter what else is going on. At some point she has to just deal with whatever, but its a lot easier to make the obedience solid, then slowly add the problems like any other distraction.
So keep doing what I'm doing? Baby steps, stay on top of the obedience, keep distractions at a distance for now? I can edge her closer to the dog park without taking her to it.
We are out 3-4 times a day for 15-20 minutes, staying close to home, gradually increasing distance from her safe place and trying to avoid dogs getting to far into her zone.
I see no signs of stress or fear, in fact when I pick up the prong she gets excited and wants to go. I think the fights we had the other day were part surprise and part just bratty 'don't tell me what to do'.
And we just came back from our last walk for the day. Got within a quarter block of a yappy little dog and all I got was a huff and a bounce. I corrected, turned back the other way and she settled right in beside me! Trotted along like she'd been doing it all her life. Kids playing, nothing. Guy watering his lawn, nothing. Birds flying in front of her, nothing.
More importantly when I pick up the prong she is excited! Wants me to put it on her so we can go. Need to work on toning down the excitement, but I am pretty happy with things so far.
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