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The effects of different collars on dog's spine.

15K views 157 replies 41 participants last post by  Chicagocanine 
#1 · (Edited)
Thought this was an interesting article about the different risks behind alllll the kinds of training collars and harnesses on the market these days.

Sorry if it's a duplicate thread, I searched and couldn't find it anywhere recently around here. I think bottom line, know how to use the tool and use it properly, like we always say....just thought it was a thought provoking article.

Happy reading :)

Caring for your Dog's Neck and Spine: Dog Collar Issues - DogBreedz.com

ETA: My apologies if "affect" is the proper grammar. I get those two confused constantly lol.
 
#37 ·
It's interesting because I don't think anyone said they were using leash corrections for this purpose, here.

I use prongs for walking to help me control the dog and get some self-correction. I don't pop the leash, though.
 
#38 ·
Not all dogs that wear prongs are wearing them to mask horrible anti-social behavior, like chowing down others' pets. I think those dogs are kept behind fences. And anyone who doesn't double up with a safety back-up collar is tempting fate: you can't blame the collar if they like to gamble with it.
 
#42 ·
I have never, not once, seen any dog in a prong collar with a back up. Halti's yes. Prongs, no. I have been in a class where a fiesty nasty terrier broke the prong collar and went charging off after another dog in the class. They do break or open. But most people do not bother with a back up.
 
#45 ·
Selzer it seems like you have an axe to grind against prong collars and are not really responding to what the article says. You can do damage with any type of collar, and if your dog never pulls it can be made out of nails and won't damage them because there will never be pressure. The article is stating that prong collars apply pressure more evenly around the neck than other collars which from my experience is true because of the design. The article isn't talking about how to due corrections or about how people can abuse any collar. The doctor just states that he has found that dog's that use this particular collar have far less upper cervical subluxations than with any other collar type.

Maybe some people have perfect dogs that will never pull under any cicrumstances. When you are on a walk and a rabbit runs in front of your dog I would say the majority of dogs react. I'm sure some would sit there perfectly but I would not say that is the norm.
 
#47 ·
Selzer it seems like you have an axe to grind against prong collars and are not really responding to what the article says. You can do damage with any type of collar, and if your dog never pulls it can be made out of nails and won't damage them because there will never be pressure. The article is stating that prong collars apply pressure more evenly around the neck than other collars which from my experience is true because of the design. The article isn't talking about how to due corrections or about how people can abuse any collar. The doctor just states that he has found that dog's that use this particular collar have far less upper cervical subluxations than with any other collar type.

Maybe some people have perfect dogs that will never pull under any cicrumstances. When you are on a walk and a rabbit runs in front of your dog I would say the majority of dogs react. I'm sure some would sit there perfectly but I would not say that is the norm.
:thumbup:
 
#48 ·
I've never used my prong collar without a back-up, and I've had it for about 20 years (thank you, HS for the great quality) so I guess I was blessed with a higher-than-average IQ because it's pretty straightforward to me: the links aren't physically connected to one another. Of course it would require a back-up that was actually one piece. You can't blame the collar.
 
#49 ·
Selzer, until you own a dog that is truly high drive, high prey, high defense, I really think you should check your judgemental, know-it-all, my-training-is superior, my dogs-are-superior, attitude. Until you have a dog, you've trained yourself, title in IPO, SDA, or anything high intensity, I just don't want to hear it.
I agree DaniFani.....

I love that fact that those of us who do know how to train dogs, have been doing it wrong all these years!! With all the wrong equipment!!
 
#52 ·
I'm sorry, but my nervy pet dogs can get rally and obedience titles... it is not the same as a powerful high drive dog doing protection at all.
 
#53 ·
Are we saying then that working line dogs, protection dogs, high drive dogs cannot be trained without prong collars?

I wonder what people do in places where they are not allowed. Must be a lot of cheating going on somewhere.

But I did not say anything about high drive protection dogs. You all are bringing that up.

Look at all the dogs people say are dominant. Most of them aren't. Some of them are the exact opposite of dominant. Some are just ordinary puppy-crazy.
 
#54 ·
I do think that what people want as end results are going to influence things somewhat too. If your priority is leash manners, then your dog will be proficient on the leash. If you're like me and don't want a dog on a leash, then it's going to be a different style of training altogether.
 
#55 · (Edited)
Why does everything have to turn into a prong (or e-collar) debate?

I think the basis of the article is pretty simple... yanking on the dog's neck/head is bad. Period. Some pieces of equipment are going to naturally, due to the way they work, lessen the frequency or severity of the yanking, pulling or lunging that occurs. Therefore, from the standpoint of spinal health, they are preferable. That doesn't mean that they are/aren't preferable from an overall standpoint for any given dog or situation.

As far as the "train your dog" argument, well obviously training is important. However, with most dogs and humans here in this mortal realm where not everyone is perfect all of the time, there is an "in training" period where the dog doesn't know that yet or isn't yet reliable to not yank and pull in all situations, but alas still has to be taken on leash somewhere for something and some yanking or pulling may occur, in which case this sort of information is an important factor to consider, amongst others, when deciding what sort of equipment to use during that time.

Additonally, whether we like it or not, we should accept that most dog owners are not dog trainers, they are dog managers. So long as they are able to have their dog behave acceptably in public, that is all that they care about. And if a piece of equipment can accomplish that easier and quicker than actual training it is what they are going to use. Certainly not a situation that we lofty dog owners and expert trainers on the forum consider proper, but it is reality for probably most dogs in the world. A lot of people are going to rely on equipment rather than training and if doing so allows dog and owner to live together happily the world won't end. Certainly there are far worse fates for a dog than wearing a prong on a walk. And since that is going to happen, then again information on the safety of different types of equipment is important for owners to have.
 
#56 ·
Thank You, what I don't understand is why the folks that can use a prong properly get all riled up? If you know what your doing fine! JQP doesn't know what he's doing!

I was that guy Seltzer was talking about, I've learned. I don't know that I will ever use a prong again but I do know that I will never use it like I did in the pass!

Learning and growing wiser is suppose to be the point is it not? :confused:
 
#58 ·
Nice post Chris.

It always makes me shake my head when people talk about not needing a prong collar because there are more effective ways to train, if you implement those other training techniques properly. Then they go on about improper prong collar use and state that corrections are harsh and build tolerance.

Let's compare apples to apples, good training to good training, or bad to bad.


Effective training with any tool will create a situation where the dog does not pull on the collar.

Ineffective training with any tool will create a situation where the dog will still pull and you are using the collar to manage bad behavior.

According to this health professional, the dog pulling against the prong creates the least physical damage to the dog. Pulling against a flat collar creates the most.
 
#63 ·
what I don't understand is why the folks that can use a prong properly get all riled up?
I guess some just get tired of the hatred, belittling and snide comments from some people.. After a while it really does get old.. :help: But your right it really shouldn't matter.. Especially since someone was trying to point out the good in a training tool...

The prong collar has helped 1000's of dog owners over the years and has saved 1000's more from being euthanized.. That I know to be true..
 
#72 ·
The prong collar has helped 1000's of dog owners over the years and has saved 1000's more from being euthanized.. That I know to be true..
YES!!!

My 75 year old 100# mother uses a prong on their 75# dog. She has balance issues so can not risk him lunging forward and taking her off of her feet. Plus, she just isn't that strong anymore. She just wants to be able to get some exercise and take the dog with her. The prong works. Guess I could tell her that she doesn't deserve to own a dog. :cool:
 
#64 ·
No kidding Leesa, not to mention....come into my house and pick up a prong collar...you will have three dogs hopping around excitedly read to go out jogging/biking/training/whatever!! They know it means FUN stuff ahead.
 
#65 ·
Of course if you use a choke chain, and you pick up a choke chain at home, the dogs are hopping around excitedly too. They know that fun stuff is ahead.

I pick up Babsy's flat collar and her tags rattle and she gets so excited. It doesn't mean that the flat collar is less likely or more likely to injure her. It doesn't mean it doesn't cause problems. It only means that she gets to go with me, and that makes her excited.
 
#67 ·
But look at the sample he is working with. How many people will take their dog to a chiropractor? Probably people with plenty of money, and maybe people who are more likely to use the prong collar properly -- maybe.

So the results are, dogs pull less on prong collars. That's it. There are those that will see that as a license to use as much force as they want because it is safer than a flat collar, and I can yank my dog to kingdom come with a flat collar and it doesn't even phase him.

The people who use martingales must have the best record with neck/back injuries because they haven't even gotten a mention from the good chiro. So they must not have caused any problems for their pooches.
 
#68 ·
:headbang:

You'd be surprised at how many people take their dogs to the chiro vets... because they care about the dogs well being! And it's not a matter of it being people with plenty of money.. Agility dogs, herding dogs, shutzhund dogs, working dogs and your plain ol pet dogs..
 
#69 ·
I've never been to a chiropractor and neither have my dogs. I suppose I don't care about them.

Actually, before today, I have only heard of one person who took their dog to the chiropractor. Her ASL friends were telling her that her GSL dog was terribly roached, so she took the dog back to the breeder to ask her opinion. The breeder told her the dog has a UTI, take her to the vet. LOL. She took the dog to the vet, who diagnosed her with a UTI, she then took her to a chiropractor before treating the UTI! That's it, the only experience I have with people taking their dogs to a chiropractor.
 
#71 ·
Well Selzer, maybe you should try it.. You'd be surprised at how out of alignment they may be... From just doing everyday normal stuff and from any type of training..
 
#76 ·
You don't have to justify why you're using a prong collar. There's nothing wrong with them, they aren't cruel or abusive, and you shouldn't feel bad for using one.

If someone does abuse their dog with one, I'm going to bet money that this has nothing to do with the collar, and they're being impatient and unfair to their dog even when the collar is off. MY dog said he'd rather have a pop on the prong than a kick in the ribs.
 
#77 ·
Most people I know with dogs that are training and competing (not just trained up to earn a title and then don) regularly take their dogs to chiro (I'm talking people I know in flyball, agility, and SchH) and also will do consults with a vet that's familiar with sports, just to get a full once-over and make sure nothing is going on. I've also x-rayed my dog's spine in addition to hips and elbows, for a baseline in case I ever suspect injury.
 
#78 ·
Most people I know with dogs that are training and competing (not just trained up to earn a title and then don) regularly take their dogs to chiro (I'm talking people I know in flyball, agility, and SchH) and also will do consults with a vet that's familiar with sports, just to get a full once-over and make sure nothing is going on. I've also x-rayed my dog's spine in addition to hips and elbows, for a baseline in case I ever suspect injury.
I xrayed Frag's back along with his hips a few years ago, for unrelated reasons, but this was pointed out by a friend after and it's a great point. I might do the same with Recon after he turns two - just like bloodwork, for a baseline.
 
#79 ·
So does a collar exist which doesn't cause any problems according to the article posted?

I don't think the article is factual.

Seems like a good way to get people to bring there dogs in for more costly treatment.

Does it mention how many dogs were used to research the findings?

I think a regular collar(1"-2") tightly under the dogs chin is going to cause minimum damage to the dog. A poorly fitted collar can possibly do damage as can an inexperienced dog handler yanking and getting frustrated every day on walks.
 
#80 ·
So does a collar exist which doesn't cause any problems according to the article posted?

I don't think the article is factual.

Seems like a good way to get people to bring there dogs in for more costly treatment.

Does it mention how many dogs were used to research the findings?

I think a regular collar(1"-2") tightly under the dogs chin is going to cause minimum damage to the dog. A poorly fitted collar can possibly do damage as can an inexperienced dog handler yanking and getting frustrated every day on walks.
No collar will cause problems if a dog doesn't ever pull on it, unless it is put on incorrectly. The article states that harnesses and prong collars do the least damage because of the design. Anything restraining a dog is going to potentially do damage if it is being pulled against hard enough.
 
#82 ·
I find the general public generally doesn't have a clue how to use or fit a prong collar correctly. Now that I think about it, I can't even recall the last time I saw one fitted correctly on a dog. I'm talking just out and about on walks or in public.

Most people have them loose and very low on the dog's neck. The dog's also walking about 3 feet in front of them while they're being dragged. Makes you wonder why they even bother putting one on their dog to begin with.
 
#84 ·
I see pictures on FB all the time of dogs like this. People can bring dogs into the nursery and I often see them with prongs down around their shoulders, and they're big dogs like rotts who just continue to pull towards whatever they want, and then the person sees me looking at the prong and says "Those things don't work obviously". :cry:
 
#83 ·
I'll admit that I'm terrible with comparisons, in general. I always grind my teeth when someone says I shouldn't own/use something because someone else can't manage to do it properly. Cars, guns, knives, toothpicks, you name it - someone can't figure it out. Why oh why should their ineptness reflect on me?
 
#104 ·
?? It' doesn't reflect on you!

So far the only consistent "issue" I see in any of the prong threads is the fact that a lot of skilled armatures seem to think "if I can do it...anybody can!" That's not realistic, not "everybody" can properly use a prong collar!

I can't juggle that make juggling wrong??
 
#89 ·
I use a prong collar in public not because my dog is an out-of-control hooligan, but because he and I are close in weight, and he is way stronger. I am always worried if he had a lapse in behavior that he could surprise me and pull away, or I could fall and accidently drop the leash. Then he might get hit by a car. So with the collar if he pulls it corrects him and then I don't worry as much. I have worked with his trainers on how to fit and use it, and which kind to buy.

I am pretty horrified that I have been using it without a backup collar. I will start doing that immediately.
 
#90 ·
I posted a link on the second page I think, of a proper use of a prong.

D ring back up is fine but if your using a prong and your still worried you need to find a new trainer! Crap happens but in general if your dog ditched his collar, you should be able to tell him "STAY" if he won't stay then you have more work to do and your using the prong to mask the problem.

Generally if dogs are well trained they don't lapse and forget their training...they fall back on their training, if he knows he's to be close to you on a walk, then that's where he will be!

I use a leash on my dogs around here not because I need them but because it makes the public feel more comfortable around them. JQP doesn't know by sight that an unleashed dog is under control! I don't want to go around scaring the crap out of people with unleashed dogs! :)

If "I" am having issues with my dog "I" don't blame the dog, "I" try and figure out what "I'm" doing wrong! :)
 
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