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-   -   E-Collars: Tone vs Vibrate/Tap? (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/equipment-how-use-where-find/398049-e-collars-tone-vs-vibrate-tap.html)

beezaur 01-18-2014 04:24 PM

E-Collars: Tone vs Vibrate/Tap?
 
I'm trying to sort out what kind of e-collar for my GSD. Training goals are not well-defined yet, but will involve off-lead scent and search type things both indoors and outdoors, also some cat/chicken/etc. compatibility training.

I've been looking at E-Collar Technologies' assortment (link), getting confused. I have no exposure to e-collars.

Aside from range and lights, the big differences seem to be in either a tapping mode or a tone. They all have 100 levels of continuous or momentary stim.

Why would tone or tap be better for a particular application?

Lucy Dog 01-18-2014 04:26 PM

Read up on Lou Castle's methods.

How To...

beezaur 01-18-2014 04:35 PM

Thanks - I've been reading those and also the chapter on electronic training in Steven Lindsey's handbook. Kind of a lot to take in for a guy who always had dismissed those things!

boomer11 01-18-2014 04:37 PM

Tone is useless if you are anywhere with loud noises. Ocean with big waves, sirens from emergency vehicles, large crowds, etc.

jocoyn 01-19-2014 09:37 AM

Actually they all do not have 100 levels of continuous stim. The Tritronics and some of the field models have fewer and are excellent collars for their intended method of use. If you are going to use the e-collar I would recommend finding a top notch mentor to help you as it is a tool that can really mess up a dog used improperly

beezaur 01-19-2014 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jocoyn (Post 4861113)
If you are going to use the e-collar I would recommend finding a top notch mentor to help you as it is a tool that can really mess up a dog used improperly

Unfortunately I don't have any meaningful access to trainers.

I've been going through Steven Lindsay's 3-volume Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training ( ). It has good information on training procedures, but to be honest it is mostly a dog behavior text. It goes into the gory details of the whats and whys of dog psychology, relevant research, and real-world examples. He is in favor of e-collars, from the perspective of kindness and building a strong human-dog bond. If a person has the patience to study it, it is very much worth the effort.

I consider it foundational knowledge. Undertaking dog training as I am is to learn and understand the underlying principles before applying cookbook training recipes, if that makes any sense.

I've had occasion to cover some sports psychology and personnel management recently too (e.g., ). The parallels with dog psychology are almost scary.

But anyway, my main dog training deficits are about the specifics - the equipment, the protocols, the precise end goal, etc. I really appreciate the help available here.

jocoyn 01-19-2014 02:38 PM

My own limited experience is with with Lou Castles' crittering and recall protocols both of which I found very helpful. The trainer I am working with understands but is using other approaches with his dogs and I cannot speak for him but I gather he respects Castle's methods but depending on where a dog was in their training (what is in front of him) has other methods in his toolbox as well. I do know him to be fair and appreciative of the dog-human bond as he told me my prong corrections were too harsh for my dog.

That said. Some of the things that have come up in discussions about the collars themselves are things about type of stim, quality of stim (and even impact on tissue/damage), durability of the equipment and consistency of the stim when repeated at the same level. Anything I would say on the topic would be parroting something I have heard and not from my own knowledge base or experience but they could be good things to "dig in to"

beezaur 01-19-2014 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jocoyn (Post 4862713)
My own limited experience is with with Lou Castles' crittering and recall protocols both of which I found very helpful. . . .

Thanks. I'm making arrangements to work through Lou's crittering protocol with people at the local vet clinic.

I was really surprised to learn the gentle realities of e-collars recently. I had always known them as "shock collars" and had exposure to people who are pretty . . . overpowering with their dogs.

Methods like Lou's are a whole new approach to training from what I've been around. I get the impression e-collar training takes more care and can have fairly subtle complexities, but that e-collars raise the bar for what can be done if incorporated well into a holistic training program.

It will be an interesting journey to be sure.

jocoyn 01-19-2014 03:59 PM

Lou has, himself, said the Dogtra or Einstein are the only collars suitable for his training. I believe he has also stated a preference for the Dogtra but he sells both.

mego 01-19-2014 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beezaur (Post 4863017)
Thanks. I'm making arrangements to work through Lou's crittering protocol with people at the local vet clinic.

I was really surprised to learn the gentle realities of e-collars recently. I had always known them as "shock collars" and had exposure to people who are pretty . . . overpowering with their dogs.

Methods like Lou's are a whole new approach to training from what I've been around. I get the impression e-collar training takes more care and can have fairly subtle complexities, but that e-collars raise the bar for what can be done if incorporated well into a holistic training program.

It will be an interesting journey to be sure.

As a psychology major, as my degree progressed I realized too that the parallels in learning and teaching are nearly identical, it's fun to apply to dogs and people.

As far as the e-collar, many people I know use the tone or vibrate feature as a warning so to speak, a pre-stim. I use that for commands she starts but is executing extremely slowly, or if she's in a stay and starts fidgeting as if to get up, a "hey" and a vibrate will remind her not to break the command, but it's not a punishment because she is still doing what I asked.

Definitely send me a PM if you want to talk more about specifics etc


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