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Old 11-10-2012, 01:03 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sarah~ View Post
... as long as I make him sit before he sees the car he will stay, but still won't take food and still very focused on the car.

I've had to start walking him in the park where the cars are far enough away that they don't seem to bother him as much just to get him some exercise.
It sounds as though as long as you're in control of the situation, things are fine. If he'll stay in a sit when requested, and not lunge at the car, then that's what you want to keep doing, in my experience.

And desensitizing him in the park is a great way to get him used to them too. I can't say anything about an ecollar, since I've never used one, but I'd be wary about putting a head harness on a dog that jumps and lunges, because neck injuries can occur.
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I agree. A halti or any head collar in this situation is going to lead to possible real damage to your dog. IMO, an E-collar is over the top. I also feel just buying one and reading internet directions with an E-collar can be a huge mistake. I know for some people who have a vested interest in a certain website feel it's a great option. I don't. I've used a prong on 3 dogs without any adverse reactions or any harm to the dog. Stress? The dog is stressed now (as in cortisol production) about the cars! The handler is stressed about the dog putting them both in danger. I'd much rather have the temporary "stress" of a dog getting used to a prong correction than a dead dog or dead handler. Then again, I'm all about seeing tomorrow.

If you're unsure about what you're doing, then see a trainer. However, with the things you've already listed that you've trained the dog to do it sounds like you can get the dog past this. I'd like to use positive methods instead of correction, also. However, it depends on how much you like your dog breathing I guess.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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If the dog has an altered frame of mind because of an outside distraction (i.e. car), then using a head collar (i.e. halti or gentle leader) can lead to serious injury or death of your dog. This is highly unlikely with a prong collar. I won't comment on an e-collar except to say that managing a training device with your hands when you are trying to manage the leash and the collar might be one to many gadgets to deal with.

Dogs WILL slither/wriggle out of a halti, and a dog that will chase cars, is a danger to himself.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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If you have an e-collar on the dog, then dealing with a leash is not a big issue, you have a remote, possibly a prong with a tab or long line on it and use it while training the dog to the collar, but not while you are having cars whiz by.

Part of being a good handler is learning to juggle lines and fancy footwork! Not sure I'll ever get the hang of it....
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:02 PM   #25 (permalink)
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If you have an e-collar on the dog, then dealing with a leash is not a big issue, you have a remote, possibly a prong with a tab or long line on it and use it while training the dog to the collar, but not while you are having cars whiz by.

Part of being a good handler is learning to juggle lines and fancy footwork! Not sure I'll ever get the hang of it....
One day I was hanging out at PetsMart, waiting for a dog to get dry, when the trainer was befuddling an owner and a pup with a jar of pennies, and a clicker and a bag of treats. I swear I was just shaking my head. I really can walk and chew bubble gum, but all that juggling while trying to get the timing right would be totally insane. I would be uselessly shaking the pupperonies instead of the pennies and reaching for the penny jug when I wanted to treat the dog. Forget it. I have nothing against having a couple of treats in the pocket, but I don't think one should be reaching for treats or gadgets when their hands need to be controlling the dog, such as when the dog is trying to chase a car.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:05 AM   #26 (permalink)
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he has a very good heel and I'm able to keep him focused except for one thing, which is cars. His hair stands on end and he stares at the car until it gets close then once its passing us he lunges at them. I've tried everything to get his attention, he refuses to take food, my leash corrections only work for a split second then he's lunging again and I can say no til I'm blue in the face and he doesn't hear me. I tried doing circles, he lunges as soon as we get turned back around again. I make him sit by the road to try and de-sensitize him to the cars, and as long as I make him sit before he sees the car he will stay, but still won't take food and still very focused on the car.

I've been using a regular nylon collar but since my leash corrections are basically useless when this happens I think I need to try something else. I've looked at martingale collars, prong collars and harnesses. I tried a choke chain, about as useful as the flat collar, and I really don't want to use an electric collar because my parents used one on their dog and it didn't stop the bad behavior, just gave the dog a nasty looking wound on the front of his neck where it delivered the shock.
If you've tried other collars and not gotten results, the Ecollar, if used properly, will in all likliehood, give you the control you want in this situation. Your parent's dog got that injury either because they disregarded directions not to attach the leash to the Ecollar strap, or they left it on for too long. Don't do either and you won't get such injuries.

My website gives instructions as to how to use the tool to teach the recall. After that basic work is done, the cars would be used as just another distraction in proofing the recall.

Whatever you do, don't just hit the button when he lunges at passing cars. There's a good chance that you'll make the problem worse.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:06 AM   #27 (permalink)
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IMO, an E-collar is over the top.
Knowing what you know about Ecollars, I'd agree that, FOR YOU, it's over the top. For anyone who can read and following simple instructions, it's a good way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag View Post
I also feel just buying one and reading internet directions with an E-collar can be a huge mistake. I know for some people who have a vested interest in a certain website feel it's a great option. I don't.
Given your past comments I'd bet the farm that you're talking about me and my website. Pretty rude of you to take such a gratuitous cheap shot, when I'm not even in the discussion.

Quite a few people who DO NOT HAVE A VESTED INTEREST think that "it IS a great option." Here's what one of them wrote,
Quote:
It is because of you and your website that my dog enjoys off-leash hiking with me and more freedom in general. The e-collar came into my life late, but I'm very happy to have this tool and so is my best friend, Gunther.
And another wrote this,
Quote:
I have a 5 month old German Shepherd I named Sherlock. A couple of weeks ago I started reading your site and decided to use an ecollar as my primary training device. ... He did not have any type of obedience training at all, so he's always been on the stubborn side.

After finding his working level, the results have been amazing. By the end of the session he was "velcro'd" to my leg ...

The amazing thing is that he looks really happy learning it, almost like he's eager to learn more.

Thanks for your time Lou, and thanks for providing great information to the public about ecollars, it's already made a big difference between the relationship we have with our GSD.
There are more ...

Some people are incapable of learning how to do something by reading about it. Assuming that's the case with everyone, is a mistake.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:14 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Knowing what you know about Ecollars, I'd agree that, FOR YOU, it's over the top. For anyone who can read and following simple instructions, it's a good way to go.

Yet you don't have a clue what I know about E-collars! Talk about being rude by taking gratuitous cheap shots.. which you've done over and over. Why you can't seem to handle someone who disagrees with you without taking it as some sort of 'attack' is puzzling. I thought that cops had to have communication skills and thicker skin? Your implication that I can't read and follow simple instructions is beyond insulting. There are posts here about people using E-collars incorrectly, as well as putting them on puppies. Yet, you don't get into those conversations. You also have people who can't tell the difference between play and aggression or protectiveness and fearful behaviors. Yet you think it's a good idea to have those people use internet instructions to use an E-collar? How do you evaluate a dog when you aren't there and can't see it? You want to boil this down to an anti-E-collar issue. That's never been the issue from my POV. Trying to make it into that isn't going to change the fact that it's not.

Given your past comments I'd bet the farm that you're talking about me and my website. Pretty rude of you to take such a gratuitous cheap shot, when I'm not even in the discussion.
And yet... here you are! Your computer program or informants must be working well!

Quite a few people who DO NOT HAVE A VESTED INTEREST think that "it IS a great option." I never said it wasn't a great option. I said it's not the ONLY option. You just said yourself "if other collars haven't worked" and the OP is talking about using a prong collar. Until this collar "hasn't worked" then that's a very viable option, too. Right?

Some people are incapable of learning how to do something by reading about it. Assuming that's the case with everyone, is a mistake.
Again, you're skirting calling me stupid or unable to read. To add insult to injury, you're basically accusing me of saying everyone is too stupid to read. I never said that. Not even close. However, there are people out there that do have issues with interpreting their dog's behavior. Speaking of the dog and handler's best interest, an in person trainer would probably be the best thing for them both. NOT because of lack of intelligence, but a lack of experience or simply needing a trained eye.
I, myself, will go by what my trainer says as for the need for an E-collar down the road and the instruction on how to use it. NOT because I "can't read and follow simple instructions" but because that's what I feel a trainer is for. To assess the dog and to help give instructions on training the dog using a wide variety of tools based on the individual dog and the goals for the dog. I honestly can't see what your issue with that is.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:03 AM   #29 (permalink)
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In the following post my ORIGINAL comments are in BLACK. Jag's response to them are in RED and my response to Jag are in BLUE

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

Knowing what you know about Ecollars, I'd agree that, FOR YOU, it's over the top. For anyone who can read and following simple instructions, it's a good way to go.

Jag responds: Yet you don't have a clue what I know about E-collars!

Lou responds: I know what you've written about them and it's so far off the mark that it's accurately characterized as myth and misconception. You've spouted just about every lie that's told about them by those who oppose their use.

Jag responds: Talk about being rude by taking gratuitous cheap shots.. which you've done over and over.

Lou responds: You opened the door. When you throw a punch, expect MANY to come back your way You seem not to like it. I suggest that you don't start it.

Jag responds: Why you can't seem to handle someone who disagrees with you without taking it as some sort of 'attack' is puzzling.

Lou responds: Your "vested interested" comment WAS AIMED DIRECTLY AT ME PERSONALLY. You could have made your point without the insult, but YOU CHOSE not to. It's a shame that you are unable to tell the difference between talking about a tool or a method and talking about a person.

Jag responds: I thought that cops had to have communication skills and thicker skin?

Lou responds: What part of retired do you not understand? When I was working I took all sorts of insults from all sorts of scum, without responding. Now that I'm retired (or when I was off-duty) there's no such requirement. And so when someone starts up with me, as you continually do, I'll respond in kind. If you don't like it, again, I'll again suggest that you not start it.

Jag responds: There are posts here about people using E-collars incorrectly, as well as putting them on puppies. Yet, you don't get into those conversations.

Lou responds: Conveniently you forget that "there are posts her about people using [EVERY TOOL UNDER THE SUN] incorrectly." I take part in conversations that 1. I see. 2. That interest me. Your statement that [i]" don't get into those conversations" IS WRONG. I've taken part in MANY of them.

Jag responds: You also have people who can't tell the difference between play and aggression or protectiveness and fearful behaviors. Yet you think it's a good idea to have those people use internet instructions to use an E-collar?

Lou responds: Yep. I really don't care if a dog is biting someone because he's playing, being aggressive or being protective. The fact is that NO ONE on the planet can tell with 100% certainty which is at work every second of a dog's life. That FACT will not stop lots of people from pretending that they can though. And so when people do this, they're guessing. It may be an educated guess, but it's still a guess. If they guess wrong, then their solution will likely be wrong as well. Instead of playing games like this, I stop the behavior. Usually the dog's energy is redirected onto something that's incompatible with the biting. Somehow those who have actually USED my methods have a different opinion about them than you do, and you've ONLY READ about a few of them. AND you fail to take into account that I use many other tools besides the Ecollar.

Jag responds: How do you evaluate a dog when you aren't there and can't see it?

Lou responds: I don't need to. And, in reality, neither does anyone else. I know a behaviorist who does a two−hour−long history before she even starts training a dog. Of course, she's billing the owner during that history. A MEDICAL DOCTOR doing a history of a 30 year old human doesn't spend that much time doing a history and he's dealing with life and death! There are only so many things that a dog can do and so many reasons that he does them.

Jag responds: You want to boil this down to an anti-E-collar issue. That's never been the issue from my POV.

Lou responds: Your statement, "IMO, an E-collar is over the top." says that the Ecollar IS "the issue."

Given your past comments I'd bet the farm that you're talking about me and my website. Pretty rude of you to take such a gratuitous cheap shot, when I'm not even in the discussion.

Quite a few people who DO NOT HAVE A VESTED INTEREST think that "it IS a great option."

Jag responds: I never said it wasn't a great option. I said it's not the ONLY option.

Lou responds: I didn't see anyone write that it WAS "the ONLY option." Can you direct us to such a statement? You did write "IMO, an E-collar is over the top." Somehow I missed you say that the Ecollar was not the only option. Can you show us that statement please?

Some people are incapable of learning how to do something by reading about it. Assuming that's the case with everyone, is a mistake.

Jag responds: Again, you're skirting calling me stupid or unable to read.

Lou responds: I don't "skirt" such things. If I WERE to say those things, it would look like this, "Jag, you're stupid and unable to read." See the difference?

Jag responds: To add insult to injury, you're basically accusing me of saying everyone is too stupid to read.

Lou responds: You're "injured" by my comments? ROFL.

Jag responds: However, there are people out there that do have issues with interpreting their dog's behavior. Speaking of the dog and handler's best interest, an in person trainer would probably be the best thing for them both. NOT because of lack of intelligence, but a lack of experience or simply needing a trained eye.

Lou responds: People who have difficulty "interpreting their dog's behavior" have that problem no matter what tool or method they use. If this was JUST about you suggesting that they seek out a trainer, you could have said so without any reference to the Ecollar, to my website, or to me. Instead, you went for the cheap shot. I have no trouble with someone going to a trainer, for some, it's the best solution. But it's not the only solution. If the trainer isn't competent, it's a waste of time and money.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:07 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Enough of trying to out-argue one-another. Nether is listening, just trying to discredit the other person. This is back and forth sniping and attacking, not discussing.

Unfortunate that a thread that could have been educational ends up closed.
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