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post #31 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 01:43 AM
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If you haven't used tear mender, then try that with a cone so the dog can't separate them. Leave on for about 2 weeks. During that time, use bully bones to get some chewing action going on. I didn't give up on my bitch, either. Sure, if all fails and you have a floppy eared shepherd, then that's what you have. However, I agree with you that there's no reason not to try. My female was really at the 'window closing' point before I got hers up. Hers had never been up, either. She was a heavy dog with thick ears, though. I think you have a better chance.

Carmen- I feed Innova right now because of the low protein. My understanding was that not only does the CA and Phos. need to be watched, but also super high protein. The protein in regular meat (like you and I would eat) isn't as high as the protein content in say Orijen. If I could get this answered, I'd consider switching to Orijen. My concerns are that Grim seems thin and short. Although I know his growth should come slowly for his joints... he's a high energy dog. I can get him to scarf his canned food or cooked meats, but the kibble he doesn't seem to have the attention span for. I've started feeding him kibble in his kennel to minimize distractions. If you can explain to me how that high of protein is helpful and non-harmful, I may switch him over. The stuff listed on your link about Innova isn't a good enough reason for me to change, and has nothing to do with why I'm even considering it. I am concerned with the risk of Pano from a high protein food, though. I'd appreciate your input on this. Thanks!

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post #32 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by julie87 View Post
I don't want to let her ears just do their thing, why? Because she is going to be 7 months old on 11/26 what should I wait for? It doesn't hurt her to have her ears taped/glued. Im afraid if I wait they won't ever be up again and then she will be floppy GSD all her life,
It's possible that taping/gluing can actually make things worse, it happened to me. My pup's ears weren't standing as quickly as I wanted, so I glued foam curlers in there, for about a month or so. I think if I had just left them alone, they might have come up on their own. Even my veterinarian cautioned me against gluing them, but I tried it anyway, and I think that it made them fall down even more.

Like I said a couple of times, if her ears stood once, they will again. Just be patient.

And Carmen started saying that her paw is shaved does that mean I torchure my dog? And dog doesn't have ANY muscle?
Where in the world did you get the idea of "torchure[sic]"? Carmen asked about the shaved leg because it usually means that the dog has had anesthesia and surgery recently, and that she is still recovering. Stress, including surgical stress can affect ears, but it is only temporary.

And Carmen didn't say your dog has NO muscle, she is saying the dog could have more muscle, meaning she may need more exercise to help build it up. Some GSDs go through a phase where they look lanky and skinny around this age. Don't take it personally! It was meant as an observation, to help pinpoint the reason why her ears fell after they'd already been standing.

If you've noticed, almost no one posts their photo in their avatar, because this is a GSD forum, not a singles forum. It has nothing to do with being rude or anything like that. Carmen's been around a long time, she is very wise and well-respected, so do yourself a favor and try to take her comments in the manner they were intended--as trying to be helpful and to pinpoint the cause of her ears falling back down. There are some legitimately rude people who post here and Carmen isn't one of them.

The comment about food being a different color was made because there are a lot of inferior kibbles out there that use dyes to make the kibble look more appealing--to HUMANS, not dogs. Just trying to make sure you're not feeding Beneful or Kibbles N' Bits or something like that. Some folks don't realize that just because the dog food has appealing looking packaging and clever commercials doesn't mean it's a good food.

I don't think her ears are diet related, though. Her body is busy healing and growing, and perky ears are not at the top of her body's priority list at the moment.

Be patient, her ears will come up, and probably will just as soon as you decide it doesn't matter whether they stand or not.
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post #33 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 06:10 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I over reacted, I am the one under stress lol
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post #34 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-17-2012, 06:48 PM
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Her ears, mainly the right has only stood on a few occasions. I am really not sure what I will do if the taping fails. Since tape is not bothering her, and she is eight months old, I will keep taping until she is a year..if they don't stand she is still my dog and best friend and always will be even if I am disappointed that she doesn't have the GSD standards I paid the breeder for.
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post #35 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-18-2012, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Freestep
Read what Carmen wrote again. There is no way she is implying your dog is "malnourished unhappy and has a poor diet".

Diet can have a lot to do with ears, but I don't think she is lacking in calcium or anything else. The fact is, your pup is healing from surgery and she is growing fast, so the demands on her body are heavy at the moment. Pointy ears are the least important thing from the body's perspective, but they will almost certainly stand again when her body comes into equilibrium. I wouldn't mess with her ears at this point. They will stand when they're good and ready.

He or she was implying that in her other posts you must have missed,made me look like I'm a bad owner for no reason, anyway doesn't matter what I noticed is people on this forum don't post profile pictures on purpose to be able to make rude comments I know that diet is a huge deal in dogs health and I don't need a lecture about it I just wanted to get some opinions based on my dog's pictures.

Okey Dokey. What ever are you talking about . I am SHE,
I don't have a profile picture because 1) I don't know how to do it 2) I don't have a single favourite dog - feel the world about many of them - all having a special place, Asta, Chella, Tetley, Kilo, Simon, Bambi, Sumo -- but I constantly post links or pictures of my dogs and parse their pedigrees .
You got opinions on the pictures you presented. The dog looked like some of the energy seen in the first picture was dissapating. There was a point at which the ears which had been up, fell. So what is the reason . Look for clues in the pictures.
you say "And Carmen started saying that her paw is shaved does that mean I torchure my dog" seriously???

I NOTICED that her arm had a shave mark which indicates some medical/veterinary intervention either an illness and need for IV or as you said a spay operation. Look. The dog is what , 7 months . She has had a bushel full of things to contend with - removal from litter , new home, I don't know your vaccination protocol but taking a stab at it , I would guess that she has had the full complement as per vet prescribed schedule and rabies -- and that is a lot , and growth period , and then the spay -- and not so good food - because I would not rate Royal Canin highly , (dog food ratings report -- Royal Canin Medium Dog Food | Review and Rating Ingredients: Chicken meal, brown rice, rice, oat, chicken fat, corn gluten meal, natural chicken flavor, dried beet pulp, anchovy oil (source of EPA/DHA), dried brewers yeast, soya oil, potassium chloride, salt, calcium carbonate, dried brewers yeast extract (source of mannan-oligosaccharides), dried egg product, choline chloride, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), riboflavin (vitamin B2), folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], trace minerals [zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], L-carnitine, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols (source of Vitamin E) and citric acid, rosemary extract ) .
Muscle is built from protein. Ears are made of cartilage and collagen is an important / essential component , and collagen is a form of protein (forming cables) . Because the dog is growing, building , and is repairing from surgery a greater good quality protein is required. There are foods which assist the formation and integrity of collagen and ligaments. A "old-wives" remedy is to provide gelatin , as in Knox gelatin -- made from bones/connective tissue , skin. There are plant sources very rich in silica which benefit ligament, cartilage, connective tissue , / arteries, skin, hair, and bone . One plant source is vegetal-silica (horsetail/shavegrass) . Others would be barley grass , wheat grass , oatgrass, stinging nettle, dandelion leaf (and root) . Or there is always Silicea, or Biosil .
Vitamin C !! is essential for the development and maintenance of cartilage. British sailors soon found out to bring along cabbage and fruit to fight scurvy which was a degeneration of cartilage due to vitamin C deficiency. They were named "limeys" because of the reliance on C rich fruit .
For additonal protein add a heaping spoon of greek yogurt on to the food .
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post #36 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-18-2012, 01:54 AM
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Jag -- I feed raw diet, have been doing so for almost 30 years. I don't see rapid growth spurts and have been lucky to only have the maybe 3 cases with pano, one litter two brothers both with pano to knock them flat and out of commission. Because there is a genetic proponent to pano, their sire and the two young males , as great as they were in other regards , were removed from my breeding program. When feeding raw , or the meat we would eat from the butcher has moisture content which changes the protein ratio . Kibble does not have that .
Dogs that go out to homes where raw feeding is not chosen are fed Orijen , and no problems reported.
Since pano is an inflammatory process I would make sure the dog got a good source of omega 3's, and whole-food rich in antioxidants and Vitamin C .
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post #37 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-18-2012, 02:03 AM
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Jag - found this for you "Canine Orthopedics by Robert Brooks, DVM, M.S. He defines pano as a spontaneous, self-limiting inflammatory disease of the long bones that commonly appears in young, fast-growing dogs. Prognosis is excellent, but lameness may shift to other limbs and be intermittent for several months. He lists contributory causes: transient vascular abnormalities, allergies, metabolic disorders, stress, autoimmune reactions following viral or bacterial infections, first estrus in females, and it has been associated with von Willebrand's disease. "
Just the things that a strong immune system would resist . A strong immune system is helped along by good bioavailable sources of clean protein (hormone/anti biotic free) and by anti oxidants , anti inflammatories, omega 3 , and a good digestive system.

And this "Ok several mentioned that perhaps a too high protein diet may contribute to Pano, which Kai now has. Kai has been on Orijen LBP which is 42% protein and 16% fat. I know that there is still controversy on whether high protein contributes to the Pano so I am unsure if I should continue Kai on the Orijen LBP. Some studies indicate Calcium and Phosphorous levels are more of a contributing factor in rapid growth. When we started Kai on Orijen we too were cautious about the high protein so we emailed the company and got this response.
We believe the concern for large breed puppies isn't protein; it is the common byproduct of high protein diets which is ash and calcium and phosphorous. With dry dog foods, higher protein is generated through greater inclusions of meat meals and the meals are high in ash, which is a rich source of calcium and phosphorous. While science doesn't prove one way or the other, there is much debate over whether elevated calcium and phosphorous cause developmental problems in large breeds, by affecting the rate of development of the skeleton. Orijen uses special 'low ash' chicken ingredients to produce higher protein with moderate ash generating calcium and phosphorous levels that are suitable for large breed puppies. While there also used to be concern over higher protein levels affecting the growth of large breed puppies, this has really been debunked in recent years, although pet food producers with low protein foods will still argue the point.
Kind Regards from Canada,
Champion Foods

Last edited by carmspack; 11-18-2012 at 02:06 AM.
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post #38 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-18-2012, 02:15 AM
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I want to make a comment regarding "taping can't damage her". In my limited experience, I want to say it CAN.

My puppy went through a phase where her ears went crazy. It was because I didn't notice her crate was too small for non-travel purposes, I think...not scientific, just a hunch. It was important for ME how her ears looked, like it is important for you, for various reasons. My breeder sent foam supports to be used with surgical glue on her. It worked really really well, and to be extra sure, I wanted to keep it in longer. One day, I posted a picture, and my breeder QUICKLY told me to take out her forms because they were dragging her ears down the way they were applied. Her ears did stand, because they stood on their own before. In addition to forms, I also fed the gelatin, gave TONS of chews from fresh bones to bully sticks, and fed a HIGH quality diet (Orijen LBP). My pup also had tons of exercise and walks in busy places so she was listening and alert. I share this not because I think you're a bad owner or whatever, I think your dog is lucky to have you home a lot. I share because this is what worked for me, and hopefully it'll help you.

Carmen is a tremendous help to all forum members, and her advice should be considered.

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post #39 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-18-2012, 02:15 AM
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7 months and both are still down? I think there is little chance now they will be completely up and normal. You can try taping or using inserts. Try giving raw chicken drumsticks or backs. Raw knuckle bones. Try bully sticks also. Hope for the best!
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post #40 of 94 (permalink) Old 11-18-2012, 02:16 AM
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I also want to say, when you tape, make sure you do both, and do them snugly enough so she won't feel anything dangle and have an urge to scratch.

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