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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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fish oil

hey all, i am so confused on the fish oil topic. I wanted to give my shepherd 2000mg of fish oil a day and 400 iu of vitamin e, but my question is where to get it. Can i buy at cvs or a vitamin store the human pills and use?

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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 04:59 PM
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These are my favorite Human Grade Oils made for dogs. Everything in them they need: http://www.feedsentials.com/
Sh-emp Oil – Combination of Hemp Oil, Coconut Oil, and Herring Oil:
Power of 3 EA's -Camelina Oil, African Red Palm Oil, Unrefined Rice Bran Oil.


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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 05:11 PM
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Dogs need Vitamin E to assimilate Human Grade fish oil. If you look at a bottle of Pet grade fish oil
and Human grade Fish oil, the human grade has no vitamin E in it and you can't just give Vitamin E as in incorrect dosages it can be toxic. But without vitamin E, the human grade stuff will just pass right through.

Pet Grade is just easier or use Coconut oil and call it a day.:
Spice of Life: Coconut Oil
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 09:28 PM
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I use Bonnie and Clyde's fish oil - it includes the appropriate amount of Vitamin E in each pump of oil (makes my life much easier!).

While I don't currently use any of them, I have heard nothing but really great things about any feedsentials product.
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunez33 View Post
hey all, i am so confused on the fish oil topic. I wanted to give my shepherd 2000mg of fish oil a day and 400 iu of vitamin e, but my question is where to get it. Can i buy at cvs or a vitamin store the human pills and use?
Oh you already knew about the Vit E ... my bad.
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 11:33 PM
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Go with salmon oil instead, it costs more but you're paying for quality. Grizzly salmon oil is pretty popular. You can buy small bottles of Vit E oil instead of pills, it's what I prefer because it is easier to add to food. My Shepherd will pop and eat capsules, but if yours won't and you're poking holes in the capsule then you're also wasting produce on the inside of the capsule that can't be squeezed out. You should be able to find a bottle of Vit E oil at any grocery store or drug store.

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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 09:02 AM
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Some "pet grade" oils are not of reputable sources so you need to carefully read the labels.

Coconut Oil contains Lauric Acid, Caprylic Acid & Capric Acid but does not contain the EFA's (Essential Fatty Acids) that are needed.

The Feed Sential Products are all of Human Grade origin (made for dogs) and provide everything needed including Vitamin E.
A "one stop shop"!
.
The following are some notes I've collected on the products.


SH-EMP OIL is made from:
Canadian Herring - very highest quality raw , unrefined from the deep cold waters of the Grand Banks. The fish is full body pressed – no heat , no chemicals – just the pressure of the press. The herring oil is a source of brain enhancing DHA/EPA, which can be converted by the body into Omega 3. Contains a higher % of EPA/DHA than Salmon Oil.
Organic Canadian Hemp Oil: cold pressed, contains omega 6 , 3 , 9, gla composition. It is full of antioxidant chlorophyll and naturally-occurring 8 compound Vitamin E . Does not contain THC
Coconut Oil: cold pressed, virgin, organic.. Contains medium chain triglycerides rich/high with lauric acid. Coconut oil has many functions including feeding brain, and glands such as thyroid and adrenals, providing energy to muscles. It is also antimicrobial and anti fungal -

Hemp oil and Coconut oil also provides an umbrella barrier to the sensitive omega 3 ‘s.



POWER Of 3-EA’s is a combination of Camelina oil , Red Palm oil imported from Ghana/Nigeria/Togo Africa (not Malaysian) and unrefined rice bran oil.
Organic CAMELINA oil is the base for POWER of 3 EFA’s. Contains a superior source of omega 3, cold pressed and is shelf stable
Red Palm provides alpha and beta carotene (antioxidant and immune health) and totally natural 8 compound of vitamin E , including gamma tocotrienol 3
Rice Bran oil - raw and unrefined provides, gamma oryzanol, lecithin, natural minerals and B vitamins ,

http://www.feedsentials.com/




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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Chip18 View Post
Dogs need Vitamin E to assimilate Human Grade fish oil. If you look at a bottle of Pet grade fish oil
and Human grade Fish oil, the human grade has no vitamin E in it and you can't just give Vitamin E as in incorrect dosages it can be toxic. But without vitamin E, the human grade stuff will just pass right through.

Pet Grade is just easier or use Coconut oil and call it a day.:
Spice of Life: Coconut Oil

1. AFAIK, Coconut oil has no EFAs. If you want to, say, add EPA/DHA to the diet, you won't get any of that from CO. Fish oil has a different kind of lipid than CO, so they are not interchangeable.

CO may potentially have some other benefits though, so you might reasonably choose to give both. (However, CO's benefits are somewhat speculative as there's no peer-reviewed literature confirming any of the CO benefits in dogs at this point in time -- just lots of extrapolation from in vitro studies). The Internet Commentariat makes it sound like it's a cure-all and proven winner...and the science just isn't there to support that, at least not yet -- but there are some promising in vitro studies, and it's generally harmless, so it's reasonable to see if you get a benefit, particularly where there are lots of anecdotal reports of it helping.

2. Fish oil is something I've been doing a fair amount of reading lately, as it's a complicated product. It can easily be rancid, contain other oil than that on the label, or contain mercury or other contaminants. We have to all ask ourselves why we are assuming any particular brand is good quality. The marketing? The price? The pretty label? The website?

In the USA, it's not FDA regulated--whether for pets OR people. No government agency is testing it. If it's not third-party certified, this industry is so ugly that there is really no reason to assume you are even getting the type of fish specified on the label -- or even any EFAs. Ask whether it's third-party certified -- and then dig into what that certification means.

Consumer Lab tests it (but it's behind a paywall). A new startup called Lab Door also started testing various human brands: https://labdoor.com/rankings/fish-oil

IMHO human-grade is better ONLY because you can get it easily with a reliable third-party certification of quality. For example, USP certification is an easy-to-find indication of a manufacturer investing in testing for purity and plant audits-- Dietary Supplements Verification . Some retailers hold their vendors to high quality standards for human-grade supplements -- Whole Foods, for example. By contrast, the pet supplement industry is kind of terrifying to me -- who knows what's even in the bottle. I would LOVE to see pet supplement manufacturers doing third-party certifications.

3. You can easily find doses of human-grade Vitamin E that are (probably) safe for big dogs. 100, 200, and 400 IU doseages are widely available. Most sources that I've seen say a 400 IU a few times a week is plenty -- if you find a scientific source that says you need that much daily, please post it, as I haven't seen it.

I prefer mixed tocopherols (which you cannot get at CVS or WM, but you can get at Whole Foods, or a health store, or online.) You can find some doseage guidelines for canines here: Fat Soluble Vitamins: Vitamin A, D, E, & K in Dogs

I would err on the low side of the doseage here, not the high side, as there are a lot of unknowns with Vitamin E in dogs currently. There's research coming out in humans that high E supplementation (400 IU) actually shortens life span, and there's a lot of confusion as to why. Be cautious until the biologocial mechanism in supplementation is better understood, as it may shed some light on dogs too. That study caused me to be a lot more cautious about E supplementation in dogs (and me). Feeding vitamin E rich foods might be the better option -- the uncertainty right now is concerning to me.

4. A lot gets posted online about salmon being better than other fish (esp. "unidentified" fish), but the "unidentified" is actually often identified on the fine print as anchovies or sardines (see, for example, the Costco Fish Oil label -- it's clear that it's from anchovies and sardines on the back of the bottle). All 3 kinds of fish have DHA and EPA in varying levels -- it's the DHA/EPA content that you're really buying, and whether it's bioavailable, contaminant-free, and safely processed. When you are sourcing EFAs, you aren't buying meat for the grill -- and I sometimes wonder if that's what the "salmon is better" claims from manufacturers are playing off of (unappetizing little fish may not be welcome on your dinner plate, but may be a perfectly good source of EFAs).

My worry is that the higher up the food chain, the more likely you are to pick up dioxin, PCBs and other nasty contaminants, so it may be safer lower on the marine food chain, if you want to avoid more contaminants. Salmon in supplements is also very likely farmed unless you are buying fairly expensive supplements. Farmed fish seems to be pretty dirty. I also feel better about the sustainability of harvesting little, rapidly producing fish for this use.

So...fish oil is complicated...very complicated. My thinking on it is still developing, as I continue to read.

Last edited by Magwart; 04-20-2017 at 10:47 AM.
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
1. AFAIK, Coconut oil has no EFAs. If you want to, say, add EPA/DHA to the diet, you won't get any of that from CO. Fish oil has a different kind of lipid than CO, so they are not interchangeable.

CO may potentially have some other benefits though, so you might reasonably choose to give both. (However, CO's benefits are somewhat speculative as there's no peer-reviewed literature confirming any of the CO benefits in dogs at this point in time -- just lots of extrapolation from in vitro studies). The Internet Commentariat makes it sound like it's a cure-all and proven winner...and the science just isn't there to support that, at least not yet -- but there are some promising in vitro studies, and it's generally harmless, so it's reasonable to see if you get a benefit, particularly where there are lots of anecdotal reports of it helping.

2. Fish oil is something I've been doing a fair amount of reading lately, as it's a complicated product. It can easily be rancid, contain other oil than that on the label, or contain mercury or other contaminants. We have to all ask ourselves why we are assuming any particular brand is good quality. The marketing? The price? The pretty label? The website?

In the USA, it's not FDA regulated--whether for pets OR people. No government agency is testing it. If it's not third-party certified, this industry is so ugly that there is really no reason to assume you are even getting the type of fish specified on the label -- or even any EFAs. Ask whether it's third-party certified -- and then dig into what that certification means.

Consumer Lab tests it (but it's behind a paywall). A new startup called Lab Door also started testing various human brands: https://labdoor.com/rankings/fish-oil

IMHO human-grade is better ONLY because you can get it easily with a reliable third-party certification of quality. For example, USP certification is an easy-to-find indication of a manufacturer investing in testing for purity and plant audits-- Dietary Supplements Verification . Some retailers hold their vendors to high quality standards for human-grade supplements -- Whole Foods, for example. By contrast, the pet supplement industry is kind of terrifying to me -- who knows what's even in the bottle. I would LOVE to see pet supplement manufacturers doing third-party certifications.

3. You can easily find doses of human-grade Vitamin E that are (probably) safe for big dogs. 100, 200, and 400 IU doseages are widely available. Most sources that I've seen say a 400 IU a few times a week is plenty -- if you find a scientific source that says you need that much daily, please post it, as I haven't seen it.

I prefer mixed tocopherols (which you cannot get at CVS or WM, but you can get at Whole Foods, or a health store, or online.) You can find some doseage guidelines for canines here: Fat Soluble Vitamins: Vitamin A, D, E, & K in Dogs

I would err on the low side of the doseage here, not the high side, as there are a lot of unknowns with Vitamin E in dogs currently. There's research coming out in humans that high E supplementation (400 IU) actually shortens life span, and there's a lot of confusion as to why. Be cautious until the biologocial mechanism in supplementation is better understood, as it may shed some light on dogs too. That study caused me to be a lot more cautious about E supplementation in dogs (and me). Feeding vitamin E rich foods might be the better option -- the uncertainty right now is concerning to me.

4. A lot gets posted online about salmon being better than other fish (esp. "unidentified" fish), but the "unidentified" is actually often identified on the fine print as anchovies or sardines (see, for example, the Costco Fish Oil label -- it's clear that it's from anchovies and sardines on the back of the bottle). All 3 kinds of fish have DHA and EPA in varying levels -- it's the DHA/EPA content that you're really buying, and whether it's bioavailable, contaminant-free, and safely processed. When you are sourcing EFAs, you aren't buying meat for the grill -- and I sometimes wonder if that's what the "salmon is better" claims from manufacturers are playing off of (unappetizing little fish may not be welcome on your dinner plate, but may be a perfectly good source of EFAs).

My worry is that the higher up the food chain, the more likely you are to pick up dioxin, PCBs and other nasty contaminants, so it may be safer lower on the marine food chain, if you want to avoid more contaminants. Salmon in supplements is also very likely farmed unless you are buying fairly expensive supplements. Farmed fish seems to be pretty dirty. I also feel better about the sustainability of harvesting little, rapidly producing fish for this use.

So...fish oil is complicated...very complicated. My thinking on it is still developing, as I continue to read.
LOL ...you should have started with ... "Not that I've thought about it but" ...

In anycase "Thank You" for the insight! I compared a bottle of "Rockys" prescribed, Fish Oil to the Human Grade stuff and noted the Vitamin E, was missing??? And dug into that and found out why "Pet Grade" had Vit E ... lost track off it and at that point I just said ... "Screw it, I'll go with Coconut Oil." But the rest of your info, I'd not considered?? Thanks for the insite ... this thread ... I'll keep track of.
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