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Dieting & Nutrients heard back from nutritionist interesting info

8K views 87 replies 23 participants last post by  Carriesue 
#1 ·
I've been wondering if I simply "cut back" on my 10 mo old GSD's dog food, it I might also be cutting back on vital nutrients (vitamins & minerals) that are also in the dog food which do not contribute to weight gain.

I contacted the pet food company that makes the product I feed my dog (which has a "B" rating from petfoodadvisor.com and is 313 calories per cup). Here is the content of his email. I hope it helps some who are also concerned with this same question;

"To answer your question, if you reduce feeding amounts from a calorie standpoint, you can indeed restrict other nutrients to dangerously low levels."

"Whether this occurs depends on the calorie content of the food. For instance, if you are feeding your dog a cup per day of a very high fat/calorie food (say, 450 calories per cup), and you decide you need to cut her down 225 calories, you will only be feeding 1/2 cup of that food, whereas if you instead go to a weight loss food with 280 calories per cup, you will still be feeding almost a cup."

"So, if you reduce the feeding amount of a very high calorie food, you may be feeding such a small amount of the food that the other nutrients can be in the "nearly deficit" range, whereas the weight loss foods, which have a HIGH Nutrient & Calorie ratio, will still be supplying the nutrients, but less calories."

"Mainly it comes down to a foods nutrients: calorie ratio, which would be lower in high calorie foods.""I don't think a restriction, with the Zero grain turkey which is moderate fat/calorie content, would be difficult, just keep a close eye on the body condition and once she is at ideal level feed to her weight again."

This makes sense to me and was exactly what I was concerned about. It looks like what I'm feeding her will be ok for temporary diets, but if I need a long term food for her that permanently supplies higher nutrients and lower calories, I will need to switch to an actual "diet formulated" food which this manufacturer does not make.
 
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#2 ·
I think it really depends. Ideally you are feeding the amount of food your dog requires to sustain an ideal weight. Most dogs are overweight because they are overfed. If your dog SHOULD weigh 70lbs, feed an amount appropriate for a 70lb dog and weight should be lost when combined with appropriate exercise

You shouldn't have to restrict calories below what is required for an ideal weight maintanence. That being said, certain foods designed for high energy dogs, with higher calorie and protein ratios, probably aren't the best to feed to an older dog that is not that active and prone to weight gain.
 
#3 ·
Yes, and on the same token, if you are unknowingly feeding your dog a brand that happens to be higher in calorie/fat ratio and your dog does not get sufficient exercise to burn it off, stepping down to a food that has a lower calorie/fat content would be beneficial. I suspected that the specifically formulated dog "diet foods" had a lower calorie/fat ratio, but I think that maybe these foods are advertised more for "seniors" than diet food? Haven't done my homework there yet.

I don't think it would hurt anyone to take a look at the bag of their dog's food and find out if they are feeding something intended for the more active dogs before they start cutting back on the food and feeding the same thing for the long term.

I don't want my dog to get 50 or 75 or 80% of the vitamins and minerals because I'm stuck on one type of dog food. That would be a little crazy to me.
 
#7 ·
It is commercial advertising! I didn't think that was allowed here?

In my quest for information onproper vitamin & mineral amounts for my dog. I have come across several warnings about supplements in any form.

An excess of certain vitamins & minerals can be as bad for your dog as a deficit. As you know, it's not the glossy coat on the outside but may be the organ damage inside from too much inside.

Why would anyone promote a supplement to the general public when they have no idea what their dog's specific needs are other than to make money and they really don't give a crap about the dog?

This post is to try to tell people how to look at the content of the food they are giving to their dog and understand it's effect and make more informed decisions. This information was not posted so you could advertise a product over the top of it.
 
#12 ·
It is commercial advertising! I didn't think that was allowed here?

In my quest for information onproper vitamin & mineral amounts for my dog. I have come across several warnings about supplements in any form.


Why would anyone promote a supplement to the general public when they have no idea what their dog's specific needs are other than to make money and they really don't give a crap about the dog?
Nice. No wonder people are hesitant to post these days.

Anyways. ....

You will not harm your dog in any way by adding Feedsentials. It's a fantastic product used by many here.
 
#8 ·
Members are actually allowed to recommend commercial products just like they can recommend breeders or e-collars or companies that sell equipment. The company, supplier or breeder themselves, though, can not come on here and advertise.
 
#9 ·
Then I would think I have the same right to keep this post, which I consider important in pointing out that that reference to Feed-Sentials could be,contradictory - if the owner's dog food is already supplying enough vitamins & minerals, it could be useless or perhaps even detrimental to their dog.

It would take an analysis of the food & supplement to determine if their dog was receiving detrimental/excess levels of any vitamin or mineral by giving the supplement.

If 100% of RDA is given by law in each dog food portion, there is no need for supplements except for the "hard working dog" or dog under other duress.

Will this "commercial" pop up in every discussion that attempts to talk about nutrition in dog food? I went to a little bit of trouble to get an answer from a professional. I didn't think it would be run over by this.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I think there is a much larger wiggle room than is often promoted in dog food, which is where many raw feeders are able to still provide appropriate nutrients over time - key is variation.

The body stores on average 28 days of required essential nutrients from excess intake in the diet. Unless you were severely underfeeding your dog over a long period of time, I find it unlikely any main dog food would be lacking if, again, at least fed an appropriate amount for a dog's ideal body weight. Taking into account the body stores excess nutrients, I would be willing to bet most foods are likely to err on the high end, and therefor you are likely feeding a little more than needed. You also have to factor in nutrients taken from treats - did you know milk bones qualify as a stand alone diet?

Again, you should never really restrict caloric intake to the point that you have to increase it once your dog reaches an ideal weight.
 
#11 ·
Correction - should of stated body stores many parts of a required diet. Not all - fat soluble vitamins can be stored in the liver and fat (A, D, E, K), water soluble vitamins are quickly filtered and excreted through the kidneys. Protein is commonly not stored, but excess calories are obviously in fat
 
#13 ·
So much for trying to be helpful.
This is a whole food supplement that was created by a breeder, for her own dogs.
It has human grade food ingredients.
You asked how to make sure your dog gets everything she needs of you reduce the food.
I replied.
I do not make or sell the product.
 
#16 ·
This whole thread is rather stilted. So the original post is talking about ensuring the proper nutrition including vitamins and minerals are being fed to our dogs when either over or under feeding the recommended amount of kibble.

Another member simply gave her opinion that a product she personally uses for her GSD and has good results with may be a solution to that problem. How is this offensive or advertising? Is this not the point of a discussion board, to offer advice and discuss topics such as nutrition? Advice can be considered and discarded but that doesn't mean you need to be rude about it

OP - if you are truly concerned then why are you closing yourself off to any suggestions? It could be Feedsentials, Nupro powder, coconut oil, salmon oil - all supplements have their place in diets and can be beneficial. When I was feeding kibble I added Tripett, salmon oil, coconut oil, yogurt, etc. just to name a few because I believe a varied diet helps promote health and ensures there are no missing links

Personally, I wouldn't knock it until you tried it. I feed RAW and supplement only now with fresh tripe, Feedsentials, and Shemp Oil and my dogs have never been healthier. I decided to try it and see what happens and I love the results.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I've been wondering if I simply "cut back" on my 10 mo old GSD's dog food, it I might also be cutting back on vital nutrients (vitamins & minerals) that are also in the dog food which do not contribute to weight gain.

Well of course.....one of the grave downsides to feeding kibble. And this is even if all of the vit/min in the kibble you are feeding are bioavailable to your dog -for the sake of the conversation lets say they are.

So unfortunately and clearly, you cannot fine-tune the diet when all of the contents are mashed and mushed into circles/spheres although great kudos to you if you can!

If you arethat worried about not feeding the correct amount of vits and mins you are going to have to supplement or find a kibble with lower cals per cup but that meets the vit/min requirements of your dog .

I would go the easier route of supplementing with feed-sentials, if I was that concerned. It is an absolutely fabulous product! Highly recommend it!
 
#18 ·
Agree with those who support the Feed Sentials products!

Since I began using all of those supplements a few months ago, our 8 1/2 year old female has started to act like a puppy again!

These are ALL WHOLE FOODS ground up.....not processed with chemical compounds!

I recommend them highly!
Moms:)
 
#19 ·
Just to clarify (maybe?) how we can recommend things that are commercial, it has to do with who I am and what I do...

If I was a sales person working for Purina and came here recommending (selling) something that I will profit from that is made by Purina, that is not allowed.

On the other hand, if I do NOT work for Purina but just found the best dog treat EVER that they make and my dog loves, I am more than able to RECOMMEND my great find to anyone here on this site.

It's about the profit/business of something that isn't allowed to be done (unless you have a membership as a vendor) on the general board.

Otherwise anyone can recommend anything that THEY feel will benefit someone/their dog. WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that it's just an opinion based on background and experience.

Heck, I can say that I give my dogs 4 Dole bananas a day, so everyone should give their dogs 4 Dole bananas a day and that's allowed :) My opinion that can (and hopefully will) be ignored or followed based on what the reader feels is right for their dog! :)
 
#20 ·
Getting back to the OP's point. I see what you are saying. I can see that it is an easy trap to fall into. A dog gets over weight and the vet recommends that you cut back on food. The owner severely reduces the food intake for weight loss, much like humans do when they 'diet'. It doesn't mean it's the "healthy" way to go. The better option is likely to be changing the food type. IE: low calorie diet formula or senior formula rather than just cutting back on portion size. Thus providing for a more balanced diet as the food manufacturer likely has accommodated for the higher vitamin/mineral to calorie content.

I believe all the Stonevintage was suggesting was that the vitamin/mineral to calorie ratio to volume ratio in commercial dog food is a fine balance that many may not be considering when they need to help there dog lose weight.

Why did this have to become a debate on supplements and especially a debate on a supplement made and sold by a forum member? No offense to Carmen. It wasn't the point of the original post!

Thank you stonevintage for raising awareness to the issue of healthy weight loss in overweight/obese dogs. :)
 
#26 ·
Why did this have to become a debate on supplements and especially a debate on a supplement made and sold by a forum member? No offense to Carmen. It wasn't the point of the original post!
The point of the original post was looking for to keep a diet balanced. A good suggestion was made by another member, she was then slammed by the OP for for having alterior motives and accused of not caring.
 
#22 ·
I've been wondering if I simply "cut back" on my 10 mo old GSD's dog food, it I might also be cutting back on vital nutrients (vitamins & minerals) that are also in the dog food which do not contribute to weight gain.

This makes sense to me and was exactly what I was concerned about. It looks like what I'm feeding her will be ok for temporary diets, but if I need a long term food for her that permanently supplies higher nutrients and lower calories, I will need to switch to an actual "diet formulated" food which this manufacturer does not make.
From another kibble feeder. Thanks for posting that, I had wondered. I put my dogs on grain free healthy weight food a while back because I was worried I was cutting too much. I have a senior and two young adults. I wonder which is better the Senior Formula or the Weight Maintenance? Or should I be buying two different foods. Please let us know what you find out as you further research this.
 
#23 ·
I've never seen someone who cares this much about their dogs nutrition, feed kibble. If you want to control your dog's nutrient intake, the only way to do that is raw.

And then on top of that to believe the word of the "pet nutritionist" who is on the company's payroll as if it's not biased. Never forget, these people aren't doctors, the ethics and expectations of pet health are much lower and way different than human healthcare. This guy has all the reason to tell you to keep feeding more food, an extra cup or 1/2 cup a day...that's probably a bag a year. To insinuate that lowering your dog's food by half a cup a day, is going to bring the nutrient and vitamin levels to "dangerously low" pretty much tells me the levels in the food are already pretty low.

On a side note, any naturally derived vitamins and nutrients that are over the needed value are either stored or passed through the body. Only certain synthetic vitamins can cause issues in the body when they're over taken. If it's natural, your body or your dog's body, can monitor its own level and get rid of what it doesn't need. It's the synthetic stuff that's dangerous.
 
#29 ·
My post was to pass along the information as relayed to me by Dr. Lang of Ainsworth Pet Food Company. He is one of their nutritionists but he also has his own practice. Why would I not trust the Dr's opinion when his explanation and recommendation will very probably send me to another pet food company for my dog's long term pet food needs? (they do not make a diet food).

I did not post here asking for suggestions - I have my plan in place from Dr Lang's suggestions. I will not run out and buy a supplement that my dog does not need. I meant no disrespect to the members product either but this post was about dog food content and long and short term dieting.

To suggest a dog owner just buy supplements and add to the food and everything will be good, missed the whole point of the post. Supplements are a huge industry and a very controversial topic and would make a good post should someone care to start one. It could start with the long term safety records that show these products are safe for dogs when given over their lifespan.
 
#30 ·
Feedsentials did not work for Midnite, but I did try it because it was highly recommended. I think with some people need to know that a product might be good but might not work for all.
 
#32 ·
So people tell people all the time not to trust a vets knowledge on nutrition and now people should not trust a nutritionist knowledge on nutrition?
 
#33 · (Edited)
You can, but you need to remember that they're not held to as high of a standard as a human nutritionist is. And in this case...the nutritionist/vet is on the company payroll.

It's also pretty interesting that if you go to their website, and read the first page, you'll see a certain last name on the founder. Could it be coincidence? Absolutely... But with a rare last name like that, I'll wager that the nutritionist has more than just a paycheck on the line when it comes to the profitability of the company.

Ainsworth Pet Nutrition® Home

On top of that, neither person listed under their "nutrition team" on their pretty fancy website (I assume it's updated frequently) is a veterinarian or a doctor.

I love the interweb...it's a pretty fantastic place to quickly fact check and get more information.
 
#34 ·
quote " corn gluten meal, corn bran, wheat flour, whole grain wheat, whole grain corn"

quote "Whole grain corn, corn gluten meal, soybean hulls*, soybean germ meal, soybean meal, pea fiber, wheat gluten, poultry by-product meal, animal digest, powdered cellulose"

these two examples are real products out there created by nutritionists working in the employee for a major commercial kibble. The later product is available at Vet clinics - same company.

The dog will loose weight . These high fibre diets fill the gut , are anti-nutrients which , in my opinion , set up digestive problems and inflammation .

The dog's gut was meant for rapid transit of nutritionally dense food .

There are other ways to trim a dog . There are other ways to have a frisky senior sans problems .
 
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