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-   -   Just started my 11 week male GSD on Raw diet (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/376905-just-started-my-11-week-male-gsd-raw-diet.html)

jmoore771 12-05-2013 10:35 PM

Just started my 11 week male GSD on Raw diet
 
Since getting our male GSD, we decided to try a Raw diet this time. Our last female GSD we had to Euthanize and we found out she had Lymphoma. She was only 4 1/2 years old. Her diet was kibble.. She also had elbow/hip dysplasia. Vet bills were unreal. Especially the cancer ones. But, I would do the same thing if needed. We made a mistake picking the breeder.

I've read a great deal about raw feeding, I just want to make sure that he is getting everything he needs to grow healthy. I want his diet to be balanced and include all the nutrients he needs.

I weighed him on my scale and at 11 weeks he is 20 pounds. Not overweight. If anything, maybe a little under.

I started the week out buying a whole chicken and cutting it up. I also bought a package of chicken wings. We are feeding him 3 times a day. I started off feeding him a chicken wing, neck, back for the day. Also gave him a little yogart. Stools were firm the next. Bone content was a little high in day one. After feeding him a chicken Brest half(half cut in half), decided to toss in the chicken small piece if chicken liver also. Mistake 1 I think) , fed another back. And some canned Red Salmon( mistake 2.. Big mistake I'm thinking) Stools became very loose. Next day started with a leg quarter. I took the skin off for now. He didn't eat but maybe a 1/4 of it. He finished the rest at lunch and for dinner ate another leg. His stools were soft... Today consisted of mainly wings and some breast meat. Trying to firm his stools up.

Before starting raw, he was in kibble. I got him at 8 weeks. It seems like every time he goes outside, when he comes in, he is always scratching or biting at something that is causing him to itch. It isn't constant, but it happens several times throughout the day.

His eyes have also had a little bit of clear type drainage. He is acting normal. I'm going to but a scale tomorrow to weigh his food out until I have a better idea what weighs what. I'm trying to average around 11 oz per meal 3 times a day. I'm feeding him by the 2% of ideal BW(90 lbs). I might have to up it to 2.5% ..
Should I wait a solid week or 2 before adding any OM?

According to 10% OM, I should be feeding him 3 OZ per day.. I guess my main concern is not giving him the nutrients he needs to grow big and strong at a steady rate. Is this common ? He is def growing, but we just started him on the raw diet. I would like to continue. Hopefully I can provide a better diet for him than kibble and without all the processed crap, coloring, chemicals, etc.

How did you guys start your puppies? Anyone have any problems with feeding raw?

brembo 12-05-2013 10:47 PM

I avoid chicken, it's got so many hormones and weirdness in it to make the chickens grow quickly. That being said if you can source hormone free/free range bird then it's probably not a huge issue. Then again, lots of dogs seem to react to chicken poorly(itchy skin) I just stay away from it. I've had the best luck with ruminant flesh(bison, venison, beef). My old guy was borderline IBS and even a whiff of (non organic) chicken sent him into a scratching frenzy. Ended up feeding Solid Gold Wolfking as a staple and half/half RAW. Considering his litany of medical issues he did amazing on that combo. I was able to give him whole Cornish hens on occasion as a treat.

If it were me, I'd pick a 4-5 star limited ingredient kibble sans grains/corn formulated for puppies. Ease onto that and once you have proper nutrition nailed down begin easing onto the RAW end of things.

Momto2GSDs 12-05-2013 11:53 PM

My personal opinion is that any human grade raw meat is much better than kibble, whether organic or not. Sharing our own experiences and opinions is what makes a forum like this great! :D

Food for thought, as my first GSD experienced many of these side effects from vaccinations and she suffered for her lifetime.


Dr. Michael Dym, DVM: Adverse reactions from vaccination may mimic symptoms of the very disease the vaccine was meant to prevent. Reactions may occur immediately or months or even years later. What I have seen in my many years of private practice is that distemper and other vaccines administered to prevent acute illness can contribute to symptoms seen in chronic disease and pathologies. Some symptoms often seen in chronic canine illness include chronic runny eyes and conjunctivitis (tear stains in dogs, dry eye, chronic eye allergies); chronic vomiting, diarrhea, appetite issues; emaciation; pancreatitis, inflammatory bowel disease, GI lymphoma; chronic spasms and seizures (epilepsy, brain tumors); skin eruptions and swelling of feet and red feet pads; itching from lifelong skin allergies; and eruptions around the mouth (seen in lip fold dermatitis). Vaccine-induced disease, called “vaccinosis,” is understood as the disturbance of the life force or chi of the patient that may result in mental, emotional and physical changes. These are induced by laboratory modification of a virus or bacterium to make a vaccine. Then, instead of seeing acute expressions of disease, we are seeing symptoms of chronic illness over years or even a lifetime. Chronic Illness May Develop After Your Dog's Vaccination | Truth4Dogs



Canine Vaccination Protocol By Dr. Jean Dodds DVM (Vaccination Researcher)



9 - 10 Weeks Old: Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy DPV, now renamed Nobivac DPV, when Merck and Intervet merged)


14 Weeks Old: Same as above


16 - 18 Weeks Old (optional): Same as above (optional)


20 weeks or older, if allowable by law: Rabies


1 Year Old: Distemper + Parvovirus,MLV (optional = titer)


1+ Years Old: Rabies, killed 3-year product (give 3-4 weeks apart from distemper/parvovirus booster )

Dr. Ronald Schultz, a veterinary immunologist at the forefront of vaccine research and chair of the University of Wisconsin’s Department of Pathobiological Sciences, outlines the DOI for the following vaccines: Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines:

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

Moms:)

Jmoore728 12-06-2013 01:04 AM

I've been reading about the vaccinations and working also. He has been a scratcher even before he started his raw diet. I was thinking allergies from the kibble.

Should I switch back to kibble until he matures more. I don't want to cause any bone or joint issues with him. I figured I can't be doing any worse than kibble. As long as I'm giving him something close to 80/10/10. I like to start throwing some small pieces of organ meat in with his regular meal....Am I depriving him of nutrients if I wait a couple weeks and keep him on RMB (chicken) until stools start looking normal. The chicken I bought was hormone free, etc.....I think it had 12% solution.... If not kibble, is there anything else? I've owned one dog with many health problems, and I want to avoid it at all cost....

We paid decent money from him. He comes from a very good Western German bloodline, so I want him to grow as his dad and grandfather did....Whom both are excelling in protection work....Nothing seems to bother him....He goes through anything, behind anything, under anything, loud noises no problem. Kids, strangers, cars.....

Going on walks is a little different. We ares still working on this....He is sluggish. Took me a good 20 minutes to make it to the end of the block. He has a fetish with eating rocks right now... It's starting to get better....He is only 11 weeks, he has a lot more things to explore and see...

About vaccinations....I live in Oklahoma. Rabies is around. When I I was younger my Dalmatian had to be put down because of Distemper...But he roamed the country. A lot of skunks and raccoons around here.....I don't understand why they admin the Parvovirus, distemper, etc shot every 3 weeks for 3-4 times..Is it necessary?

Momto2GSDs 12-06-2013 08:35 AM

J,
You are doing the BEST thing you could ever do for your dog! So please keep feeding this way!
It's challenging in the beginning but it will get easier!;) Below is a guide to follow from Maggie Rose Lee (I think.....lost the thread). I am sure if you emailed her she would help you! I've been feeding raw for 19 years but my diet is different from yours, so I think the below will help you more. Just go a little slower and a little less for now with adding the organs IF it is bothering him.

Maggie: "There are so many different schools of thought when feeding raw, better to pick one well-known source and follow that until you get comfortable and then try to expand into different raw feeding models. Some people say that a dog is a carnivore, and does not need fruit, vegetables, or grains in his diet, others say that dogs have evolved to need those items - so who to believe?

Fruit, veggies and grains certainly won't hurt your dog in limited amounts, but I don't believe they need them. A dog does not have the enzymes to digest cellulose, the material from which plant-cells are made - so if they can't break down the plant cells, then they can't get the nutrition in the plant out - fruit, veggies and grains are all plants, and thus fed raw and unprocessed does not offer any nutritional advantage to the dog. Veggie and grain foods need to be ground, cooked, pureed, or otherwise changed in physical state for the dogs to be able to get any benefits from them.

As a rule of thumb (just to get a general idea), a growing pup needs to be fed as much as an adult dog - for a GSD, that is about 2 lbs a day. They need a mix of MM's (muscle meat - chicken breast, ground beef, cubed pork, etc), RBM (raw meaty bone - chicken thigh WITH bone, turkey necks, pork ribs), and OM (organ meat - liver, spleen, kidney)

Different reference sources for raw feeding will give you different ratios. For example, I've seen from 80% MM, 15% RMB, and 5% OM, to 50% MM, 40% RMB, 10% OM.

To be safe, I like to find some middle ground, and stick to those ratios. An average meal would be a chicken leg quarter, and a chunk of liver (about the size of a ping-pong ball), for example. Or a turkey neck, about half-a pound of ground beef, and 1/4 of a pork kidney. These are just examples to help you visualize what a raw meal looks like.

I do give my dog leftover veggies, or throw a few noodles at them, but I consider those as extras - some people after reading up on raw feeding feel that their dogs NEED fruit, veggies and grains, and make them part of their regular diet. As long as your dogs are healthy, have nicely formed poops not to hard or too runny, then I don't think that it makes that much of a difference in the long run.

Lots of info and recommendations on the BARF forum here. You will see that some people are spread-sheet measure-EVERYTHING type of people, and some are just-throw-them something type of people when it comes to feeding their dogs - find what works for you, and have fun with it - unless you really mess it up for over a looooooong period of time, you won't harm your dogs. By messing up, it usually means: not feeding any bone at all, because you are uncomfortable in feeding bone. Not feeding any organ meats, because liver and kidney stink (sorry, you'll just have to deal with it, we all do [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Karen\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image001.gif[/IMG]), and not feeding any variety, because your dog is doing well on chicken breast meat only so why change a good thing (over time, such a diet will be hugely deficient). Feeding cooked rice with raw veggies only and calling it a raw diet (someone on this board told of a person that did this).
etc, etc, etc.

So basic recap: 80 to 90% of their diet should be muscle meat and raw meaty bones with small enough bones that they can eat it. Your GSD and Cavaliers should have NO problems with chicken or smaller rib bones from other animals. About 10% HAS to be organ meats. Heart is a muscle meat. Different meats have different nutritional profiles, so to have a balanced diet, you need to feed VARIETY: chicken, turkey, pork, beef, fish. Add novel meats like venison, buffalo, duck, goose, goat, etc. and you are on your way.

I also add raw eggs on a regular basis, and canned sardines as one of my dogs does not like the raw fish, but loves sardines and other cooked fish.
Better to feed cooked fish than none, and better to feed cooked liver than none, in the case that your dog does not like raw liver."



No, this distemper and parvo is not necessary THAT many times as you can see from the Vaccination Schedule (see "OPTIONINAL" on the 3rd set of P/D) from Dr. Jean Dodds who has devoted her life to researching this.


It was my choice and my holistic vet's agreement for my dogs to only get 1 Parvo/Distemper. They are now 5 & 7 years old and I have them titered every year. Their P & D numbers were so high (after only 1 shot at 14 weeks old) that it would have covered 5 dogs!:D Read all you can from the dogs4dogs.com site also go to dogsnaturallymagazine.com. Go with you gut and just tell your vet No Thank you!


This article shares what vets wished they had known before vaccinating!
Vets On Vaccines | Dogs Naturally Magazine



by Dr. Patricia Jordan
Cancer in our pet population, why is it on the rise?
Vaccinations and How They Disrupt the Immune System
5th Annual Joint American Homeopathic Conference - Poster Session 2010
Leptospirosis Vaccines Adverse Reaction
How vaccines dysregulate the immune system and impact genetic control over disease expression
Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots by Dogs Naturally on July 12, 2011 Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots | Dogs Naturally Magazine
Protecting Your Puppy From Disease: Protecting Your Puppy From Disease | Dogs Naturally Magazine
Bordatella Vaccinations: Bordetella Vaccination for Dogs: Fraud and Fallacy | Dogs Naturally Magazine


Questions to Ask Before Vaccinating
Rabies Vaccination: How to Vaccinate More Safely

Protecting Dogs from Vaccine Reactions Is Your Dog’s Bad Behavior Caused by a Health Problem?
What to Do When Your Dog Has a Vaccine Reaction






Vaccinating Small Dogs: Risks Vets Aren’t Revealing Dog Flu Vaccine: Do You Really Need This Shot?
Combination Shots for Dogs: Weapons of Over-Vaccination

Vaccinating Unhealthy Pets: Beware Reactions & Vaccine Failure Vaccinating Dogs: 10 Steps to Eliminating Unnecessary Shots
Don't Vaccinate Your Dog Unnecessarily: Titer Test

Moms:)

Bequavious 12-06-2013 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momto2GSDs (Post 4622721)
J,
You are doing the BEST thing you could ever do for your dog! So please keep feeding this way!
It's challenging in the beginning but it will get easier!;) Below is a guide to follow from Maggie Rose Lee (I think.....lost the thread). I am sure if you emailed her she would help you! I've been feeding raw for 19 years but my diet is different from yours, so I think the below will help you more. Just go a little slower and a little less for now with adding the organs IF it is bothering him.

Maggie: "There are so many different schools of thought when feeding raw, better to pick one well-known source and follow that until you get comfortable and then try to expand into different raw feeding models. Some people say that a dog is a carnivore, and does not need fruit, vegetables, or grains in his diet, others say that dogs have evolved to need those items - so who to believe?

Fruit, veggies and grains certainly won't hurt your dog in limited amounts, but I don't believe they need them. A dog does not have the enzymes to digest cellulose, the material from which plant-cells are made - so if they can't break down the plant cells, then they can't get the nutrition in the plant out - fruit, veggies and grains are all plants, and thus fed raw and unprocessed does not offer any nutritional advantage to the dog. Veggie and grain foods need to be ground, cooked, pureed, or otherwise changed in physical state for the dogs to be able to get any benefits from them.

As a rule of thumb (just to get a general idea), a growing pup needs to be fed as much as an adult dog - for a GSD, that is about 2 lbs a day. They need a mix of MM's (muscle meat - chicken breast, ground beef, cubed pork, etc), RBM (raw meaty bone - chicken thigh WITH bone, turkey necks, pork ribs), and OM (organ meat - liver, spleen, kidney)

Different reference sources for raw feeding will give you different ratios. For example, I've seen from 80% MM, 15% RMB, and 5% OM, to 50% MM, 40% RMB, 10% OM.

To be safe, I like to find some middle ground, and stick to those ratios. An average meal would be a chicken leg quarter, and a chunk of liver (about the size of a ping-pong ball), for example. Or a turkey neck, about half-a pound of ground beef, and 1/4 of a pork kidney. These are just examples to help you visualize what a raw meal looks like.

I do give my dog leftover veggies, or throw a few noodles at them, but I consider those as extras - some people after reading up on raw feeding feel that their dogs NEED fruit, veggies and grains, and make them part of their regular diet. As long as your dogs are healthy, have nicely formed poops not to hard or too runny, then I don't think that it makes that much of a difference in the long run.

Lots of info and recommendations on the BARF forum here. You will see that some people are spread-sheet measure-EVERYTHING type of people, and some are just-throw-them something type of people when it comes to feeding their dogs - find what works for you, and have fun with it - unless you really mess it up for over a looooooong period of time, you won't harm your dogs. By messing up, it usually means: not feeding any bone at all, because you are uncomfortable in feeding bone. Not feeding any organ meats, because liver and kidney stink (sorry, you'll just have to deal with it, we all do [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Karen\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image001.gif[/IMG]), and not feeding any variety, because your dog is doing well on chicken breast meat only so why change a good thing (over time, such a diet will be hugely deficient). Feeding cooked rice with raw veggies only and calling it a raw diet (someone on this board told of a person that did this).
etc, etc, etc.

So basic recap: 80 to 90% of their diet should be muscle meat and raw meaty bones with small enough bones that they can eat it. Your GSD and Cavaliers should have NO problems with chicken or smaller rib bones from other animals. About 10% HAS to be organ meats. Heart is a muscle meat. Different meats have different nutritional profiles, so to have a balanced diet, you need to feed VARIETY: chicken, turkey, pork, beef, fish. Add novel meats like venison, buffalo, duck, goose, goat, etc. and you are on your way.

I also add raw eggs on a regular basis, and canned sardines as one of my dogs does not like the raw fish, but loves sardines and other cooked fish.
Better to feed cooked fish than none, and better to feed cooked liver than none, in the case that your dog does not like raw liver."



No, this distemper and parvo is not necessary THAT many times as you can see from the Vaccination Schedule (see "OPTIONINAL" on the 3rd set of P/D) from Dr. Jean Dodds who has devoted her life to researching this.


It was my choice and my holistic vet's agreement for my dogs to only get 1 Parvo/Distemper. They are now 5 & 7 years old and I have them titered every year. Their P & D numbers were so high (after only 1 shot at 14 weeks old) that it would have covered 5 dogs!:D Read all you can from the dogs4dogs.com site also go to dogsnaturallymagazine.com. Go with you gut and just tell your vet No Thank you!


This article shares what vets wished they had known before vaccinating!
Vets On Vaccines | Dogs Naturally Magazine



by Dr. Patricia Jordan
Cancer in our pet population, why is it on the rise?
Vaccinations and How They Disrupt the Immune System
5th Annual Joint American Homeopathic Conference - Poster Session 2010
Leptospirosis Vaccines Adverse Reaction
How vaccines dysregulate the immune system and impact genetic control over disease expression
Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots by Dogs Naturally on July 12, 2011 Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots | Dogs Naturally Magazine
Protecting Your Puppy From Disease: Protecting Your Puppy From Disease | Dogs Naturally Magazine
Bordatella Vaccinations: Bordetella Vaccination for Dogs: Fraud and Fallacy | Dogs Naturally Magazine


Questions to Ask Before Vaccinating
Rabies Vaccination: How to Vaccinate More Safely

Protecting Dogs from Vaccine Reactions Is Your Dog’s Bad Behavior Caused by a Health Problem?
What to Do When Your Dog Has a Vaccine Reaction






Vaccinating Small Dogs: Risks Vets Aren’t Revealing Dog Flu Vaccine: Do You Really Need This Shot?
Combination Shots for Dogs: Weapons of Over-Vaccination

Vaccinating Unhealthy Pets: Beware Reactions & Vaccine Failure Vaccinating Dogs: 10 Steps to Eliminating Unnecessary Shots
Don't Vaccinate Your Dog Unnecessarily: Titer Test

Moms:)

This is really interesting! Is the dog expected to get all of the vitamins/minerals he needs from the organ meat/bone, or is it recommended to add these in with a supplement? (Sorry not trying to hi-jack if this is off topic.)


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Momto2GSDs 12-06-2013 09:35 AM

I use additional supplements and oils but everyone does the raw diet differently.;)

Bequavious 12-06-2013 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momto2GSDs (Post 4622913)
I use additional supplements and oils but everyone does the raw diet differently.;)

Ah yeah that's the part that freaks me out :/ Maybe by the time I can get a freezer, I will have learned enough to feel confident with things like calcium/phosphorus ratios, the inter balance of vitamins, etc.


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Momto2GSDs 12-06-2013 11:37 AM

I beg your pardon.....it was Castlemaid, not MaggieRoseLee, who I shared the info from on my post below.:o Sorry about that, my apologies. Moms:)
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ml#post4606097

Jmoore728 12-06-2013 12:57 PM

He still had loose stools this morning. He went twice....I think it's getting better. Bare with me while I explain. When first squatting to go, a little liquid came first followed by some solid, small stools that shot right out...Haha....I think this is the first time I've ever explained dog poop.

I'm pretty sure the canned Salmon I fed 2 days ago, was too much, and too soon.....He ate 3 wings last night. This morning he ate one wing and tried to hide the other one. I eventually picked it up...My wife picked up some canned sardines, and all natural yogurt. She couldn't find any canned pumpkin worth buying. I think most of it was for pies and packed with ingredients.

Should I stick with wings for a day or 2 or feed him a back for lunch?

At 11 weeks he only weighed 20 lbs, so he is a little behind....I'm sure the extremely loose stools set him back a little. His father is probably 90+ pounds. He is growing, just a little behind compared to other male GSD owners weight chart and the standard chart.....I'm sure he will pick up where he left off once we get the hang of it. Hopefully I can start adding some very small pieces of liver in with his daily meals.
Basically is this something okay to follow and adjust as needed?
80% MM
10% bone
10% OM


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