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How do you socialize a Working Line dog?

11K views 60 replies 24 participants last post by  Chip18 
#1 ·
How do you guys socialize your WL dogs? Do you even socialize them? Or do you keep them away from strangers completely?
 
#2 ·
I always want them out and around everything, but as far as strangers or just people other then family, for me it depends on their temperament and what I'm currently doing with them. Even my overly social one, there's times I want a little indifference to people so I just keep him obedient around others. The other one wants to be friendly, he really does, but sometimes those thin nerves just won't let him for more then a couple minutes, so for him its better to just keep him obedient all the time.
 
#3 ·
From my experience, puppies are happy little sponges ready to soak up attention......or they should be IF they are genetically sound!!!! A puppy needs to be confident yet cautious, happy yet discerning.....these are GENETICS!


The whole idea of "socialization" has gotten to be popular due to the amazing numbers of GSDs being produced in this country....probably 80% (and I am probably being generous) of which do not have a sound genetic makeup....these pups need additional help to be safe and solid members of their families and society.....

Socialization opportunities are or should be taken advantage of for some basic manners and obedience imprinting....not jumping, attention/focus, stays and releases......when your puppy NEEDS to be socialized to be approachable, to be handled, to walk with you without hiding, hackling or grumbling - then you have a puppy whose genetic makeup is NOT 100% sound.



Lee
 
#9 ·
From my experience, puppies are happy little sponges ready to soak up attention......or they should be IF they are genetically sound!!!! A puppy needs to be confident yet cautious, happy yet discerning.....these are GENETICS!


The whole idea of "socialization" has gotten to be popular due to the amazing numbers of GSDs being produced in this country....probably 80% (and I am probably being generous) of which do not have a sound genetic makeup....these pups need additional help to be safe and solid members of their families and society.....

Socialization opportunities are or should be taken advantage of for some basic manners and obedience imprinting....not jumping, attention/focus, stays and releases......when your puppy NEEDS to be socialized to be approachable, to be handled, to walk with you without hiding, hackling or grumbling - then you have a puppy whose genetic makeup is NOT 100% sound.



Lee


Bing, bing, bing.
 
#4 ·
I worked with them in a similar way as any other pup I have raised. The WLs never became social butterflies after they started to mature. They became more aloof naturally, yet very stable around people. Also when they lost the cutesy factor at around 5 months of age, people left them alone (except when they had or have had GSDs) or actively avoided them, sometimes even picking up their kids. Fine with me.
 
#11 ·
LOL, when I fostered an 8 month old pup he was the cutest thing in the world to me. I remember I took him through a bad neighborhood, it was the funniest thing seeing "hard gangbangers" crossing the street and walking around me, and little kids running up to pet him. (I kind of liked it :cool:)
 
#5 ·
Halo is our first working line GSD, we also have a West German show line, and have had a prior WGSL and two American line shepherds. I didn't socialize her any differently than the others. Well, actually even more extensively perhaps.

She likes people, but is not a social butterfly like Keefer. When she was little I let her meet anyone she wanted to meet that wanted to meet her. I exposed her to as many new people/places/things as possible, while working on basic manners and obedience training, such as Lee describes above. Her first 5 classes were in 4 different locations with several different instructors because I liked the idea of having her learn to pay attention and obey in new places and situations.

I took her to every strip mall in town to work on her training, near baseball fields during practices and games, near busy basketball courts, around kids on skateboards and bikes, and to a regional park where there are lots of people walking dogs, and families with small children and babies in strollers, as well as wild turkeys, deer, squirrels, geese, and other wildlife. We worked outside the bowling alley, inside the pet supply stores, and outside the supermarket with people walking past with carts and automatic doors opening and closing. We worked on busy street corners and next to gas station driveways with cars going in and out. We sat outside Starbucks, and she met people there and got treats. Pretty much anything I could think of to throw at her, I did. :)
 
#6 ·
Sometimes all the early socialization you can do will not guarantee and socialized adult.
After I got some basic obedience down, then I had to switch from correcting with the prong collar to using treats on walks. Like using them to do "look at me" before during and after passing dogs and other people. I had to learn dog language and read not only my own, but other dogs. There were times when my dog wanted to be social with another dog, I assumed that because it was off leash it was friendly, but many causal dog owners do not read their dogs, and I'd notice the upper lip raising - a mini snarl and so then I'd have to say "leave it" to our dog.

Find a trainer that does socialization. Find some dog groups (hiking, play, meetups, etc) so your dog can at least be friendly with a certain group of dogs it will get to know. We found a GSD meetup group and that was so helpful. On our first hike, Molly followed the good behavior of the other dogs - so being around other canine role models helped. Then I take my dog everywhere I can, so she has learned, if I say it is OK, she can say hello to people in stores or on walks and get positive rewards from them and from me after we move on. Even with all this, I still have to be on alert, vigilant. Many dogs seem nice but then react to her size by screaming when they get next to her. If we are hiking in remote areas and she's off leash and we see another dog, I usually will leash her up, just to be safe. My working line female is 6 yrs old now. Its mostly dogs I have to be concerned about, but she will definitely alert us to a person who is a threat. She did that a couple weeks ago, reacted strongly to this guy about 30' away from us in a parking lot. We were in our car, he gets in the car next to us and yells into our car, "everytime I see a GSD I want to kill it". So our dog sensed his attitude right away. Socialization is possible if you are willing to be alert 100% of the time and realize they will never be like a Lab.
 
#7 ·
This so depends on the puppy. When mine was a baby, we had the coldest winter on record in our area. I just took a friends puppy to a seminar at 16 weeks. zero socialization to strange places and people. She went from my friend, to me, to a 5 hour car ride to a strange building. And she OWNED the place.

Solid genetics are solid genetics. Some dogs may have more suspicion. The girl had very little to strange surroundings. My boy had more. So it's more a matter of exposing the puppy, regardless of lines, to the world and making them feel safe while they do it.

This is a great list for puppies
Puppy Socialization - what it really should be | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee
 
#12 ·
I prefer "Exposure to people rather than Socialization with people.

But ultimately it depends on the dog, if you have a dog that likes people, socialize away but even then .. it's best to set some terms calm behavior before you say "Yes" is best.

Otherwise you run the risk of creating excitement to see/meet uh everyone. Blowback from that approach will be seen when company comes over. Put another way, if you train your dog to be excited to meet people, then when your dog meets people ... they will be excited. :)

On the other hand ... some dogs don't much care for people and with them Exposure to people is the best and safest (in my view) course of action. They just need to be out and about and be civil and calm but they don't need to be a dog you allow just anyone to put hands on. Been there done that worked out fine.

But ... I'm not really "this" brief. :)

The rest of the story is here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7897425-post21.html

So yeah ... ask questions. :)
 
#13 ·
I prefer "Exposure to people rather than Socialization with people.

But ultimately it depends on the dog, if you have a dog that likes people, socialize away but even then .. it's best to set some terms calm behavior before you say "Yes" is best.

Otherwise you run the risk of creating excitement to see/meet uh everyone. Blowback from that approach will be seen when company comes over. Put another way, if you train your dog to be excited to meet people, then when your dog meets people ... they will be excited. :)

On the other hand ... some dogs don't much care for people and with them Exposure to people is the best and safest (in my view) course of action. They just need to be out and about and be civil and calm but they don't need to be a dog you allow just anyone to put hands on. Been there done that worked out fine.

But ... I'm not really "this" brief. :)

The rest of the story is here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7897425-post21.html

So yeah ... ask questions. :)
I guess I'm curious because I am actively looking for WL breeders. Many people who get these dogs get them for protection, and they refuse to socialize them. Kind of like "don't pet my dog he's training for being a seeing eye dog". Or "he's training to be a bomb sniffing dog, don't pet him".
I see why this is preferred, but in my opinion it's good for a protection dog to learn that most people are good. You may never even come in contact with a perpetrator.
 
#19 ·
You know - I have met people who refuse to let anyone pet a puppy/dog - a couple of big time trainers in the sport have that perception....one of my owners was in a bad wreck, his wife killed, injured badly - I got his mature titled male back after having it fostered for a short time....the dog was FINE....not in your lap social with everyone, but approachable, sane and safe. I even took him to a fun day at an AKC obedience/agility facility and did the CGC with him - put him in a down beside a crated yippy shih tsu, handed the leash to a 12 year old and walked away for that exercise - passed with flying colors.... The owner never let anyone pet this dog, put him in a crate when family and visitors came to the house as per his instructions from the trainer ......Again, bottom line is genetic soundness....


Lee
 
#27 ·
I've recently enjoyed Michael Ellis's videos (power of food/playing tug) and it really starts with engagement. Without engagement, you're not going to be able to train a puppy/dog and I personally feel that dog needs to view you as its whole world. I actually prefer that my dog doesn't get excited with strangers/friends that come over as some people don't like dogs, let alone jumping/in your face type dogs that most people think they're untrained etc. I would certainly want the dogs to just be calm/aloof/accepting of other people/dogs/whatever unless it becomes a perceived threat and I believe that by introducing the puppy to new environments within their comfort zone is enough. If a dog is being ignore by most people, there's no negative association for the dog. It's really what you expect of the dog...
Beyond Ellis's videos, I would talk to a few good trainers (probably would avoid petsmart types and check w/ those that compete in IPO) and ask them what they recommend. Every trainer has their own training philosophy(ies) and not one method works for all WL dogs. Also be on the lookout for IPO events/clubs in your area as it would be a great place to meet WL dogs/handlers in person and get their views.
 
#32 ·
Julian, is there a specific response you are looking for? I mean this in a nice way.. Since you don't have a dog yet, are you worried about a certain behavior or happenstance that might occur? It might make it easier for people to respond more specifically..

I have had and continue to have working line.. I've also had ASL and American mic of ASL and WL... All but one have had great temperaments with or without socialization.. Ironically, the one who was a bit more hard (still had a good mind, just was a bit edgier) and needed more socialization probably had the least due to circumstances... My current WL girl is a SAR dog, so she has to have more socialization but mostly due to exposure.. I don't let people just walk up and pet her.. Sounds funny, but a nose to an eyeball, or a stiff arm jab (she is great at that) can cause damage and suits just as easily as a bite.. Might be harder to explain to the judge but who wants to be in that situation, lol?
 
#33 ·
Yes I am looking for a specific response. I want to know which methods produce a certain type of dog. When I fostered dogs I was always nice to them (as you should be of coarse) and let anyone meet and greet them. They were social butterflies and probably wouldn't make a good protection dog. Let's say you have a property that needs guarding, how would you socialize a protection or guard dog?
Is that specific enough of a question? I mean this in a nice way of coarse.
 
#34 ·
It is more specific, yes.. But I think it has been answered I a few different ways.. Remember, alot has to do with the breed and genetics /temperament over socialization... Although, if you are looking for a guard dog you don't want them overly friendly to anyone, so less on the meet and greet.. Some dogs are just naturally more self confident, territorial and apt to take an aggressive stance in a threatening situation..

We had a Scottish terrier when I was growing up and she was an amazing guard dog! Our ****zu is a good guard dog (in his mind) vocally, but of course the larger dogs are the deterrent due to intimidating looks..

My suggestion is that when you get your dog, love it, take it out with you wherever you go, train it well and be its all and all.. You will have a fierce and loyal dog.. Buy from a respectable breeder and you will most likely have the genetics for a great guard dog naturally.. Does that help at all? I really am trying to understand how to answer you in a way that helps with your questions :)
 
#36 ·
Ok, lets keep this going now that we are on the same page...
I will not overdo the meet and greet.
Then comes obedience training as #1 correct? LuvShepherds doesn't use treats for her WL and I'm pretty sure all the trainers around here use treats. So maybe you can recommend me a good book on training guard dogs, for nothing more than to at least get them started off in the right way and hope for genetics and nature to to take care of the rest when they mature.
 
#38 ·
I started by taking my puppy everywhere with me that was safe from the start, lots of fun, new things every day. Everything was fun and not stressful or forced and always kept her close to me. Made sure to limit her interactions to well known, calm, friendly dogs and kept her away from hyper, high strung ones to avoid any kind of conflicts developing. So far my pup is extremely friendly, out going, and 100% confident in any situation. Has never shown fear of anything. She loves people and other animals. A lot of that is her genetics though. I worked a lot on a solid recall and obedience training early so that she is focused on me and *usually* listens the first time no matter the situation. She is just over 6 months old so there may be a little suspicion or aloofness as she ages but I doubt she will have any socialization issues.
 
#39 ·
Socializing will increase your chances to end up with a nice stable adult that is not afraid of the world. The best protectors are the ones who don't shy away from people. The dog that is weary of people, will crawl under the bed or behind your legs if you (and thus the dog in his/her mind) are threatened.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Exposure, not socialization, enhances a genetically stable dog's confidence, it does not create it.

There is no such thing as a "protector" that shies away from people.

The dog that is wary, cautious of people, will not lend itself indiscriminately to friendships is discerning, not fearful and does not crawl under beds or hide behind its owners like a fearful, weak nerved dog might do.
 
#51 ·
Wow, sorry I missed your question for so long. Yes, PP and estate protection. But I live in a VERY heavy populated city area. I can't have him barking at every single person passing by, I guess that part depends on the dogs nerves. I have been reading a lot of Leerburg articles and trying to cater a plan specific to my situation. I know how to raise a dog, been doing it for many years, just wondering if I should do anything different this time around with a KNPV line pup. Leerburg says to not let ANYONE pet your dog. This is a controversial topic on here (been reading similar threads). Opinions seem to be from all over the place and they all have strong evidence backing their claims. I pretty much HAVE to bring him around many different environments, but who to let him interact with is what I'm debating. Many tell me that if protection is the number 1 priority, to not let anyone interact with the pup.
 
#42 ·
I've been lucky with my crapshoot puppy. Sire was a nice retired working belgian import, the dam was a rescue - probably American show line or BYB pet lines.

I did both exposure and socialization. If someone asked to pet him I let them. Especially kids. He loved all the attention up until about 6 months at which point the shepherd aloofness and suspicion started to kick in. He went from loving attention from everyone to tolerating it from most and enjoying it from a very few.

He basically ignores strangers now. We were at a family bbq last weekend, my BF had the dog at the table, my BF's cousin (who the dog never met) was sitting next to him. The cousin was petting the dog's back. Mako barely had a single ear turned back to acknowledge the cousins existance. A few mins later my BF started petting mako in the same spot and the dog turned into a puddle of love because "daddy" was giving him attention.

We do bite work trainind and the dog is doing well. I was physically assaulted and my dog engaged the attacker.

Point being the early socialization I did had zero effect on my boys suitability for bite work or even as a protector in a real world situation. When I said I got lucky I meant it as in, lucky that my boy inherited his sires drive and temperament instead if the dam's.

Like everyone else has said, you need to start with a good breeder producing genetically sound temperaments. If you start with that what you decide to do socialization wise isn't going to be that big of a deal.

That said I am very glad I did as much exposure training as I did. My guy is pretty defensive. The exposure stuff really helped him have a baseline if what is normal vs what he needs to be on guard about.
 
#45 ·
Oh, I agree! I just wanted to make the point that socialization doesn't necessarily mean that the puppy HAS to interact with the new people/places/things in order to benefit from the exposure. And for some puppies, it's best that they don't, to avoid being overwhelmed.

Halo has solid nerves and has always acted like she owned the joint no matter where she went, so that was never a concern for us. She has oodles of confidence and is pretty sure she's all that and a bag of chips. :wub:
 
#46 ·
Yes! I made a point of separating the two to avoid confusion. Socialization = meeting new people, Exposure = being around new people places and things without interacting.

I call it all socialization. Lol

As far as the meeting new people type of socialization - I have been rather inclined to leave that up to my dogs. The ones that enjoyed the interaction got to meet new people, often as a reward for otherwise good behavior. Those who didn't enjoy it got the "please don't touch he's in training" pass. I couldn't care less either way, I'm OK with having an aloof dog as long as it is calm cool and collected. I'm OK having a social butterfly as long as it is calm cool and collected :p

All my dog's went through the exposure only type of socialization though.
 
#47 ·
LOL I did better with the "aloof" guy he was a "potential" bite risk so with him "calm" it would be!

My social Buttery Fly (Boxer) I kinda sorta got that one a bit off. :eek:

She luv'd people ... well that's good what's the harm??? I found out later ...if you train/allow your dog to be excited to meet people, then your dog will be excited to meet people! Company in the home is where that approach shows it's flaws. :crazy:
 
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