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Irreparable damage from over dog-socialisation??

12K views 71 replies 21 participants last post by  konathegsd 
#1 · (Edited)
Yup, I made a mistake. I so desperately did not want a socially challenged GSD that I dog-socialised the heck out of him when he was 2-6 months. Well, now at 8 months I cannot get near another strange dog without his attention flying out the window. He automatically thinks that its playtime.

I have been working on him, and his parents are human and dog neutral so I thought there was hope, but a lady told me to stop wasting my time because the damage I did could never be undone, and that I could never lower his value for other dogs now, no matter how hard I try.

Do you think this is true?
 
#2 ·
No. Puppy just needs to be worked under threshold around other dogs and the distance decreased slowly over time. Use high value rewards to reward attention on you and if she gets too close and starts losing her little puppy mind, move her away until she can refocus and then either give her a break or keep working her. Just takes some practice and consistency. Mine was also nuts about dogs at that age. Get within twenty feet of another dog and he was a complete fool. He's been able to walk calmly by other dogs without giving them a glance for the past six months and only gets better every day.
 
#8 ·
Just wanted to add, that I think the socialisation did have some plus points: his confidence is through the roof, he's bomb-proof, and has never shown any aggression or fear around dogs. BUT I think the cons outweigh the pros in this case, I think I went too far :( I just want him to be neutral to dogs, like he is with humans. Happy to get a pat, but doesn't seek it out.
 
#9 ·
My male pup was extremely friendly and confident at that age.

But as he got to be a year he did start getting too confident and started thinking he owned the park and wanted to inspect every dog. When I held him back he got aggressive.

I know this is an opposition reflex reaction. Basically the dog wants to communicate with every dog he sees. Run to them smell each other. Check out the competition and the potential females in the area.

But that dog communication and business is not what i want to be doing or what other dog owners like so it had to stop.

I would recommend working with the leash pressure techniques on the Tyler Muto channel and the place command. Start to use a prong and work through his techniques.

Noting is irreparable with a dog. They can learn something every day. As soon as you develop new techniques he will respond.

I didn't have the access to the likes of TM channel when I was there with my dog so I developed my own leash techniques to combat the dogs willingness to meet every dog.

I would work on changing speeds while walking and turning, walking really slowly and then jogging.
 
#10 ·
Thanks MadLab for your insight. That is something I was worried about, when he is prevented from getting to another dog he gets frustrated sometimes. I was mindful that I could inadvertently be developing leash reactivity in him. I have since got in contact with a balanced trainer and we start this week! I'm not confident enough atm to try out new tools without a trainer showing me how. I will definitely check out that YouTube channel.

That's interesting what you say about changing pace. When we jog, he is so much more in tune with me. Bu I don't do it for too long, as I worry about his joints. Maybe we will do some interval training, mixed with obedience and play, that ought to help with engagement.
 
#13 ·
We have had incredible luck with using "leave it" with hotdogs (he is hard to get food motivated an it was our last resort). Many people swear by "LAT" or "look at that".

Right now Wick ignores 95% of the dogs and the few he doesnt is because they are actively trying to get his attention too.

I really hope you find something that works for you! I have heard of success stories where adult rescued dogs can be trained to ignore dogs, so although I have no experience with it, it sounds like it is not a hopeless effort :)
 
#14 ·
Thanks wick! I never thought to extend 'leave it' to other dogs, I only ever used it on food and things we came across on our walks i.e. rubbish, another dog's ball etc. Will definitely give it a go. Thanks for the reassurance too, I'll be honest - I was preparing for the worst when I made this post! That lady demoralised me pretty quickly :eek:
 
#17 ·
"leave it" is also a great tool to use and can def be tranferred to anything you want to be left alone... as long as your dog understand the concept, it can transfer pretty easily.

Sounds like you are on the right track. My advice would be to pick ONE method of training for this.. Too many pieces and it will confuse your dog and frustrate you. Pick one and stick with it for a few weeks. If you don't see progress, then make a different choice, but def remember that it could take a little bit to see improvement. Just be consistent with whatever you choose.

Oh and the martingale collar, is it on up high? Right behind his ears?
 
#19 ·
Yeah Troy is kinda the opposite right now. He doesn't like other dogs unless it is in a controlled environment. He is reactive and whenever we're up close or far away by a dog that isn't in their yard his hackles go up and he barks. So I'm still trying to work on that to get him to pay attention to me and not the dogs but I hope its just a stage.. :(
 
#29 ·
Good luck with your training. Are you using the 'leave it' method too so something different? Do you mind sharing how your dog became reactive? I'm wondering if it's from leash tension when he tried to get to other dogs in the past.
 
#20 ·
Another tidbit if advice and something that I found made a huge difference to my dog - put greetings on cue. I did a lot as far as building focus increasingly closer to other dogs, but those last few feet were killing me. So I started putting greeting on cue. If he held his position in heel to a certain point, say five feet from a dog he could greet, then I'd mark and give him a release to go greet. As he got better, he'd hang closer and closer and eventually even pass the dog by while waiting for that cue. Because if he tried to dash over or break his heel, I took him back ten to twenty feet and he had to down stay until I felt he was ready to try again. But if he held it, even if I wasn't planning on releasing him to greet, he still thinks he's working to earn that release to go greet. The way I set it up, the interaction itself is the potential reward as opposed to a play session or food treat. It worked well because when you get to a certain point, that dog may just be too much more exciting than whatever you have on hand. I also liked doing it this way because it makes a prong or ecollar unecessary.
 
#22 ·
I really like this info and want to use it, I am curious was your dog barking and lunging during any of this ? If I let Wick even get to the point of thinking about saying hi he gets over excited and barks because he can't get to the other dog to say hello. At the moment only leave it and walking in another direction works.
 
#21 ·
I use "with me" instead of "leave it". Not sure why the difference, but "with me is while we are out and about. "Leave it" is when we are stationary. Makes zero sense to me as I type it though. LOL.

I would do as suggested by changing paces, switching directions, getting him involved and engaged in YOU!! Another thing that may work is the second he starts forward to see another dog, change pace or direction. Do not allow that behavior to ever be successful. You can set it up as well with a calm known dog. Walk towards them, when he pulls switch directions. Then switch back. Every time he pulls you turn and jog the other direction. He will learn pretty quick that pulling forward gets him nowhere.
 
#24 ·
It's not irreparable.

I am not a fan of doggy day-cares and dog parks, and letting my dog play with stranger's dogs. This is because I will probably be taking the dog through training and into the ring, and I don't want them to see other dogs and think, play time. I want them to be neutral, more interested in me than other dogs. And most of mine are, even at home. I have one or two who are currently youngsters, and they give me the impression that they are more concerned with what a dog in a neighboring kennel is doing, than what I am doing. It has to do with their age/maturity level, exposure to other dogs, amount of time I have spent working individually with them.

Right now, your pup is at an age where a lot of the members of our breed start barking and lunging at other dogs, forget what SIT means, and so forth. You have a confident pup that is happy to see other dogs. Good job! Keep up the good work! Work through this stage too. A quick, Leave it, and move on, and then make yourself more interesting too, and as your dog matures, I would be very surprised if this stage doesn't right itself. I wouldn't let the dog play unrestricted with other dogs from now on though, not if you want the dog to be more neutral. Unless you get a second dog.

Good luck with your puppy, it sounds like he is doing great. Lots of people are tearing their hair out at this point in their pup's development. They call it teenager, or something like that.
 
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#27 ·
I would not work with recall on a long line or any way with other dogs around first. I would work on focus. Teach the dog watch me and leave it. Once that is solid, move on to the long line. I used raw venison as a high value treat in training. Go sit at a park and as dogs go past you keep your dog in a sit with focus on you. Start out with one dog a day for a few days then two dogs then three dogs a day and so on.
 
#32 ·
Who is this "lady"? Funny how some random know-it-all can shred our confidence in a second. It sounds like you have a good dog but one at the "air-head" stage of adolescence.
Playing with other dogs should be earned by good behavior and on your terms only when he is being good and showing impulse control. Once in a while break up the play sessions with fun obedience so it is not just a free for all.
Enjoy your youngster. With work and consistency he'll be OK. Also keep him enrolled in one or more classes for another year or so at least.
 
#36 ·
Who is this "lady"?
Well, that's the internet for you! Haha. She's just a member of the same FB group as I am, we have a little GSD page for our city. I posted on there asking for some tips, and that's when the comment was made :/ Will definitely ensure that future interactions from now on are earned! We are currently enrolled in our city's GSD club where we do obedience, it is a great place to practice focus on me with other dogs around.

I would join a class where there are other dogs under control.
Have the dog get his rewards by focusing on you , being obedient , getting all your attention with lots of positive guidance and praise , and at the end of the day you go home , no - yes NO other dog interaction or play time.
Thanks carmspack, we are currently with our local GSD club. It's a huge temptation for him to play there since he has known most of the dogs there since he was a puppy. We spend a lot of time removing ourselves from the class to create some distance when he becomes disengaged with me. Then when his head is on right, we go back in. I think I will stop the little 'meet and greet' after class we have, I think even that small of an interaction may be too much at this point.

Thanks for starting this thread, Chai! I've been having the same issues you're having and Mad Lab had. We worked through it while on lead, and he's fine 99% of the time unless he's passing really closely by another puppy.
Hi McWeagle, good to know you've seen some progress! Very encouraging. It seems like you know what you have to do to fix his reactivity, I must make sure to keep in touch with your progress :)

Nope the English guy is using a Flat Collar and leash! Watch and listen to the clip again, watch the Jeff Gellman clip. There are no "firm" corrections??
By firm correction I meant collar pops, not soft ones, but not hard ones either. My dog didn't show discomfort during the session, but he did seem surprised, and then confused. But after about 3 corrections, we didn't even have to do it again...so I think it may be working. I was also happy to see that he didn't shut down, he was still his happy, boisterous self :)

He is such a strong dog, I just don't know how I can correct him 'softly' and have the same effect that the check chain had? It seemed to snap him out of his distracted state, and then we could continue with more attention on me. I will try to be more anticipatory of his actions though. In the video you just posted, I noticed that dog was wearing a prong collar and was quite extreme in its behaviour? Do you think our cases can be comparable?
 
#33 ·
I would join a class where there are other dogs under control.
Have the dog get his rewards by focusing on you , being obedient , getting all your attention with lots of positive guidance and praise , and at the end of the day you go home , no - yes NO other dog interaction or play time.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Thanks for starting this thread, Chai! I've been having the same issues you're having and Mad Lab had. We worked through it while on lead, and he's fine 99% of the time unless he's passing really closely by another puppy.

My issue is that we do most of our walks off lead on a hiking trail near our house. We'll meet anywhere between 0 - 8 dogs on a walk. And he was completely fine about ignoring the other dogs until a couple of weeks ago (he just turned 1 year). Now suddenly, he reacts to about 1 in every 10 dogs - he's done it a few times now. The most recent (2 nights ago) he even went after another dog and snarked at it - just noise, but still scary to the other owner. And he completely ignored me and tried to avoid me catching him. His body language isn't aggressive/dominant so I'm pretty sure (but not 100% sure) that HE thinks he's playing, but the other dog was pretty overwhelmed.

So.... Obviously I've let him off lead way too soon! And now we've taken a couple steps back in our training. So back on lead he goes and I will go back to working on focus.

Anyway, thanks for the thread. It comes at a perfect time for me! Glad to hear that some other people are having the same issues. And it also has reaffirmed that I can fix this and gives me a few new ideas to try. :)

ETA - when I said he "reacts" to other dogs, I don't mean that in a reactive kind of way (except for that last dog) but more that he just doesn't ignore it. He will go up to it, sniff, or size it up, similar to what Mad Lab said his dog was doing. I know, I was expecting too much too soon.
 
#39 ·
Recall is non negotiable.
Dog on long line in distracting environment. Call the dog, wait one split second for him to come, when he doesnt pop the long line sharply and repeat as necessary until the dog turns and takes a step towards you. Mark and praise which should bring him in the rest of the way.
After several sessions you do not mark or praise until he is all the way to you.

When the dog does not comply with a recall command dont "reel him in" this inhibits clarity and creates opposition reflex. Pop the line sharply until he makes the choice to turn and move towards you. After several reps he should turn towards you in order to avoid the pops.

I overlay the E Collar on the long line then fade the line completely in a couple of sessions.

Thats the quickest fool proof method I would use.
 
#40 ·
Ok thanks, that makes sense. Will stop reeling and start popping, I get that he should do it under his own volition. I haven't used an ecollar before, so I'd need to get a trainer to show me first if I end up using one.
 
#41 ·
I agree recall is not negotiable.

I do it a little different. I teach the COME command in class on lead, and never use it unless I can immediately enforce it. So, I do not have a dog, even in a fenced yard, off lead and call COME! until they are fully trained. Instead, I call their name, "Moofie!!!" If that brings them, great, yay! praise, good boy. If it does not, I reach in my pocket as if I have a treat, whatever, but coming to me is always praised.

But I use the COME command on lead, and if they do not come immediately, I do not "pop" the dog, I give a slight tug, and if that does not bring the dog to me -- almost always does, then I walk to where the dog is, reeling in the line as I go, so they do not get to play a chase game, and then walk the dog to where I was originally, and have him sit and praise the sit.

The dog does not get the opportunity to ignore the COME command and do something more exciting or fun. When the dog is farther along in training and has an excellent chance of doing the right thing, I will start using the command off lead, and with distractions.
 
#45 ·
It creates 99% reliability, and I get 99.82% reliability without the e-collar -- these statistics mean nothing. Neither statistic is tested/developed by any proven method. Good training is good training, and is reliable regardless of the method. I get a reliable come through distractions without an e-collar.

For some dogs, one might argue a more reliable recall having backed their training with an e-collar and for other dogs, I believe the more reliable training would not include it.
 
#51 ·
I did not read all the responses, but I just need to say that you did not make a mistake. There is no way to over-socialize an animal with it's own species unless you are also totally neglecting it - which you aren't!

There is no damage to be undone, none.
All that socialization helped him to speak his native language - dog - more fluently, which will help him and you all his adult life.

His attention flies out the window and he thinks it's playtime because he is just 9 months old. Of course he wants to play with other dogs. Of course he has the attention span of a gnat on speed. Of course he loses all focus - he's a budding adolescent!

He is roughly the human equivalent of 13. Now, I don't know about you, but when I was 13, my parents totally lost all my attention and focus the moment my friends were around, and all I wanted to do was run off with them. LOL, thankfully, they didn'tassume the "damage" was irreversible and give up on me.

Just keep working with him, slowly, patiently and don't make a huge issue of it. He should get his brain back in 2 - 3 months and when he is a mature male you will be happy he is dog-savvy. Adolescence you just have to live through.
 
#55 ·
Come and here are used a lot everywhere. I use come, front, and we have an emergency word. Come means come to the area I'm in. Front means come directly to me and sit in front of me. The emergency word is practiced frequently but never used unless it's an emergency. That word is meant to stop them in their tracks and get to me.
 
#56 ·
Chai, have you seen any improvements since you started this thread? What method(s) have you been using?

My 7 month old girl is the same way. I also thought (think?) that I may have over-socialized her because I didn't either want a fearful/aggressive dog against other dogs =S She really wants to greet and pulls with tail wagging when passing other dogs or when doing nothing and just standing beside other owners with dogs (or walking with them). Sometimes I dont think this is a huge problem, but other times I am afraid this wont go away with age or that I wont be able to train it away.
 
#64 ·
Chai, have you seen any improvements since you started this thread? What method(s) have you been using?
Definitely :) I've incorporated a few things, some whole and some tweaked.

Recall: gone earlier or later in the morning to our usual place when it is quieter, or a different place that is more secluded. Practicing recall on 15m long line with almost no distractions, rewarded all compliance. He has since only ignored once, due to a couple of dogs running off the path and playing about 50m away very loudly. I gave him a leash pop, jumped around and he complied very happily. Planning to stay with this low level of distraction until he is 100% for a couple weeks before moving to a slightly more distracting environment (e.g. closer to walking path).

Excitement with dogs: using check chain now, now front attach harness or martingale. Incorporating games, random changes in pace and direction on our afternoon walks. His attention on me has increased dramatically, especially at a jogging pace. We are now able to pass dogs 20m away on a walk, with a voice command of 'leave it' with a curious glance from him but then attention is back on me as I start to jump around with a tug toy. If he plants his feet/butt, pulls or barks I give a correction with the check chain and walk in opposite direction to create distance. Then it's refocus and calm down before we continue, also, he doesn't get to meet that dog.

I have stopped ALL greetings if he is displaying unwanted behaviour. If he behaves, then it's a 3-5 second greeting and we move on, PLUS he gets praise/play/treat if he disengages well. Sometimes we stop with distance from a walk path, and we practice focus on me as a dog goes by. This was trial and error as I started too close, so I found his threshold and we are working at this level :) I use raw meat/liver as this is the absolute highest value treat for him. Messy and gross, but worth it.

Still to try: creating a cue for greetings as selzer suggested, I really like his idea :)

Overall, I've had to actively think about everything I am doing with him. i was being inconsistent, and in turn, unclear in what I expected of him. No repeated commands, no bad behaviour is ignored but actively corrected, and all good behaviour at least gets verbal praise. I've actually written out daily plans on what we are going to work on *nerd* I've also had to become more 'interesting' in everything I do with him. I enjoy nature and being outdoors, and I guess I would sometimes zone out. Now, it's 99% attention on him. It's exhausting, but a good investment I think! I have definitely noticed an improvement. Boy, do we have a long way to go, but I am so much more confident now that EVENTUALLY I will have a dog neutral boy to enjoy more freedom with (off leash fun! hiking, beaches, fetch, hide and seek...so many possibilities).

The advice and reassurance in this thread gave me my mojo back, the comment by that lady really knocked it out of me! I have a lot more motivation now, I think he senses it too.

I did not read all the responses, but I just need to say that you did not make a mistake. There is no way to over-socialize an animal with it's own species unless you are also totally neglecting it - which you aren't!
Thanks River :) I am very happy that I have such a confident pup, I learn more about him everyday and it is great to watch him grow into himself and discover the world. Recently we got charged....by a jack russell! Burst out of the patch of native trees that separates he park from the road (which we were walking on as there are usually no dogs on it). Tchai pranced out of he way, gave it a look like "what the **** is wrong with this thing" and immediately went into a sit stay when I asked. We waited calmly while the owner ran over (through the bushes) so to reduce the risk of the little guy running onto the road, and then kept walking without interacting with neither dog or owner (I was very annoyed). Also, we encountered a little pit/staffy puppy who was very shy. Tchai walked next to me on a nice, loose lead and I allowed a greet. His usual boisterous energy dissipated almost instantly, he got into a down by himself and put his head down by the puppy until it sniffed him :) During this time we have also had a few bad behaviours like over excitement, pulling or barking. But I try to focus on the positives :)

Just today, we passed a house undergoing construction. There was a bulldozer that started up as we rounded a corner causing quite a ruckus, he started a bit out of surprise, a few hairs rose on his hackles, but I kept walking and he ended up trotting past quite happily. Also, a toddler reached her hand out of a pram and squealed as we were passing, and before I could do anything, the hand got a sniff and nose bump but nothing else. I have been a very proud mum :)
 
#60 ·
I switched to FRONT when I was training obedience dogs. Because that definitely means come to the front of me, to my belt buckle and and sit. Yes, then we add a finish, but not until we the person is ready (because you have to wait for the judge to say, "Finish your dog."

I had Come down great for this, only I had trained it with my hands together in front of me, and the dog would trot right up to my hands and sit her butt. Perfect. Two weeks before the trial, I learned that my hands had to be at my sides. And that was major confusing to the dog, she wanted to go to my hand -- ick!!!

So I switched to FRONT and learned to put a huge smile on my face. In practice you can have a cheese cube in your mouth and when the dog sits in front, looks up to your face you can spit it for her. Works for some people, I guess.

Well, anyway, it worked and we got our title. And that is how I used FRONT instead of COME or HERE.
 
#62 ·
I kind of use COME and HERE the same way. But when I discuss a puppy problem with someone, where the pup is not coming when they call. I go through my whole spiel about not using the command unless you are connected and can and will enforce it immediately. And then, if I remember, I often tell them they might want to try a different command, such as HERE, especially if they have ever used COME and then bawled the dog out or punished him.

Going with the different word, going back to the beginning with the training, never repeating the command, always following through, and keeping it very positive, can have a problem dog on the right track pretty quickly.
 
#63 ·
This is very interesting, because I've stopped using 'come' unless we are doing obedience and I want him to present in front of me. I've gone back as if he was 8 weeks and using 'here' for recall, always when I can enforce. I don't know if it's my imagination, but he's already so much more responsive. I'm sure it's the culmination of new techniques that I've picked up and started using from this thread :D
 
#66 ·
.: UPDATE POST :.

Hey everybody! Just after Tchai's 2nd birthday I thought I would just post a quick update if any body was following this post, and also as a thank you for everyone who contributed.

I haven't been on here very much recently, but I have been hard at work. MY IPO trainer likes to tell us to "Talk less and train more", which I am taking to heart :) I am in such a great place at the moment with Tchai, he is such a great dog and we have both learned so much from each other.

We train every day, and we are loving it. Under a more experienced handler or professional trainer, I believe our issues could have been eliminated within a few days of first presenting themselves. Alas, I am but a rookie and progress is far slower. Tchai's reactivity has drastically reduced, we can engage each other around other dogs and even do off leash stuff. We are also excelling at tracking (man-scenting/trailing style) and have passed many trials! Passing by strange dogs calmly on leash in close proximity i.e. sharing a sidewalk, is still a challenge. At training we can do it with no problem, but out in the real world I am still being inconsistent and mistiming my commands/corrections. When we see other dogs running or playing, Tchai still very much wants to go over and join in, I can feel his excitement and sometimes his frustration, even though he has stopped the outward symptoms of pulling or barking. I don't know if I can ever get him to that stage where he just goes "Meh, who cares?".

Around other dogs Tchai is still a d***head as my general obedience trainer likes to call him. Not aggressive at all, but likes to push buttons and make a general nuisance of himself. For this reason I only let him play with a handful of known dogs that can either a) command respect (mostly assertive females) or b) play as robustly as he likes to. Pleasingly, Tchai is respectful and gentle around very old and very young dogs. An aggressive dog and resource hoarder who both attend general obedience and are managed expertly have also taught him to respect space a little better.

We got assessed by an IPO trainer who accepted us into the club as a non-competitive member. He loves training us and says that Tchai has a spunk that he really likes, although illustrated to me from early on why Tchai would never be competition material in IPO. We do a number of exercises that focus on increasing engagement, drive and developing character, although I think I am getting a lot more out of the training than Tchai is! I also go to many of the theory classes, trials, workshops and general training sessions solo to learn more about the sport and sport dogs. I have decided that I would like to get a working line in the future to pursue it properly as I am really enjoying it :)

Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know that we are plodding along and loving life :) I wanted to thank everybody who has some sort of input, everything was taken on board in some way and gave me lots to think about. Of course, we have a long way to go, but I am very pleased with how far we've come.
 
#70 ·
Around other dogs Tchai is still a d***head as my general obedience trainer likes to call him. Not aggressive at all, but likes to push buttons and make a general nuisance of himself.
This little segment represents Rollo so well. Congratulations on Tchai's improvement, I feel like I'm in the same boat at the moment with Rollo (yay, over-socialisation :frown2:) but we've also started working with a professional for his reactivity (he's only near 8 months, so hoping we'll get over the hurdle quick!)

You've done so well with Tchai! Yay!
 
#69 ·
Congratulations!
Thanks Cliff :) maybe the 10th time around I'll actually know what I'm doing! MAYBE then I may feel like I can offer some valuable advice :p

I love success stories.Thanks for the update!
Thanks Dogma! I just had to get my head outta the sand and start doing stuff instead of lamenting online all the time and feeling sorry for myself, haha! Thank you for the encouragement!
 
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