Are we completely hopeless??

backtothesoil · 08-10-2011, 11:35 PM

Our puppy Ruger is about 7.5 months old, and while he is absolutely *fantastic* in most aspects of day to day life (really responsive to training, great with the kids, doesn't chew things that aren't his, and super calm and sweet) we are absolutely stuck on correcting a few difficult behaviors he has.

Our biggest problem is that he seems to view everyone he meets as a potential ax murderer.

I am really struggling to understand why he has such a difficult time accepting new people. We brought him home at 8 weeks, and immediately started to socialize him. I took him in stores that allowed dogs every day, to meet new people and accept treats from them (hoping to teach him that new people were a good thing). We joined a puppy play group at 10 weeks old, where we met with other puppies and their owners for romping and socialization for an hour each week. He has been to crowded places with little to no problems (apparently there are no bad guys at the farmers market) but in one on one situations with someone he doesnt know its like a train wreck.

On leash he barks and backs away, in the house off leash he gets right up in someones personal space and barks his brains out. If there is any area that we have settled into for any amount of time, it is then off limits to anyone else, making picnics and visits to the vets offices a nerve wracking experience.

For training he has done a 6 week puppy class, which he did really good in, and we are now in private training, 3 lessons in. While his trainer has been excellent in helping him to learn to walk politely, to learn down stays, sit/stay/comes and other tricks, I am not finding her advice for polite greeting to be helping at all. She has him in a pinch collar, and says to "correct him" for barking, and treat him for being quiet on command. But I find that he gets so worked up in his defense mode that he isn't interested in treats. And I really don't think he is connecting the correction to the being quiet to the treat he is eating. I have tried distracting him with a command, and that hasn't really been much help. We are having *absolutely* no luck with greeting people in our home...and I am feeling at a complete loss about it.

Oh wise strangers on the internet...are we hopeless? Can my sweet, gentle, lovable boy ever be taught to let people approach without trying to guard me/our area? Will we ever be able to welcome people into our home without him going nuts? We got him to be part of our family, and to be able to go everywhere with us, but this barking and defensive behavior are really crushing our dreams.

I feel like we are doing everything all wrong, and its making me feel so sad!

onyx'girl · 08-10-2011, 11:49 PM

Is this the only trainer you have access to? I would look for a GSD club or other venue to work on his issues.
The book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt has exercises that will help with the behaviors your dog is exhibiting. If you can find a class nearby based on the book that would really help.

BUT, a dog that is like the one you describe generally has to be managed thru life to deal with the temperament it has. Maturity will mellow out the dog with proper management, but dogs that are of lower threshold are not going to be cured by any amount of training....you have to learn how to manage it, see things before they excel and nip the behavior in the bud before it begins.
I have an almost 5 yr old that was the same dog you describe(if I let her have her way when she was younger).
We still have to deal with it, and I can't put her in situations where she is over her threshold/comfort level. It is what it is...

Mom2Shaman · 08-10-2011, 11:54 PM

I was feeling just this way last weekend as my 6-month old boy was a nightmare camping (barked at every person he saw on leash, from the rig, from the X-pen, from the truck). Today I took him to the lake and he was soliciting pets from strangers, glared at a few, but never barked, and only shied if people moved to pet him too fast. No aggression, just a slight shy. Just keep it up, don't coddle but correct the behavior. He's in his "punk" age and hopefully perspective will catch up if you don't let this behavior be accepted and get set.

valreegrl · 08-11-2011, 08:33 AM

Fear.

At this age he is entering his fear stage, and correcting that fear is not the way to go. You want to build his confidence through positive methods.

I would stop using the pinch collar and begin positive reinforcement.

The book Control Unleashed mentioned previously is a great start. You can utilize the LAT command in this instance. I also agree with finding a trainer who specializes in rehabilitation and behavior modification. He is so young you can change the mindset really quickly, and by the sounds of your trainer, they are great at teaching foundations but not behavior mod. Especially since their advise is to give a correction.

Realize, your dogs reaction to strangers, although misguided, is a warning to stay away. Correcting that warning will do just that, correct the warning and down the road he will no longer give a warning. This escalates the problem not correct it.

**MaggieRoseLee** · 08-11-2011, 09:30 AM

If you clicker train you can start making progress on this immediately. It is from fear and you need to turn it around so he sees new people as a GREAT thing, not a scary thing that so stresses him he HAS TO FREAK OUT AND BARK TO KEEP THE SCARY AWAY!!!!!

This should look familiar:

Surprise Party - Clicker Training: helping the reactive dog - YouTube

If you need to start learning the clicker (come on, so YOU will have to learn something new to help the dog, YOU CAN DO IT!!!

) a great site to get started is:

Intro to Clicker Training (perfect for puppies!) <--- click on that and get started!

backtothesoil · 08-15-2011, 12:39 PM

I want to give you all a big huge thank you hug - this information is exactly what we needed! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

After our 3rd visit with that trainer, I really started to feel unsure about her methods, as she seemed to be getting more aggressive with physical correction. She was really pushing us to put him in an E-Collar, and start using that every aspect of training. After hearing how damaging this sort of training could be when he is so fearful, I am really glad that I went with my gut and told her no, and that you all have been here to step in with some fantastic alternative options!

So for an update, I ordered the Control Unleashed book from Amazon, and joined their Yahoo group. Through the CU website, I found a new trainer in our area who is a CDBC and CPDT-KA, and she does private training and classes based on the CU principles. We are in the process of scheduling our first training session with her, and I have high hopes that she will teach both us and Ruger the skills we need to move through this together and come out the other side as a really great team.

I just really want to thank everyone who took the time to reply to my thread, and to give us the ideas and help we needed to get on the right path!

codmaster · 08-16-2011, 01:14 AM

Good luck with your dog!

**Cassidy's Mom** · 08-16-2011, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backtothesoil

So for an update, I ordered the Control Unleashed book from Amazon, and joined their Yahoo group. Through the CU website, I found a new trainer in our area who is a CDBC and CPDT-KA, and she does private training and classes based on the CU principles. We are in the process of scheduling our first training session with her, and I have high hopes that she will teach both us and Ruger the skills we need to move through this together and come out the other side as a really great team.

Is that Greta Kaplan? She's a mod on the CU list and I know she's in that area. If I lived there I'd definitely be getting in touch with her. She's given me some helpful suggestions off list regarding flyball training with Halo.

backtothesoil · 08-16-2011, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom

Is that Greta Kaplan? She's a mod on the CU list and I know she's in that area. If I lived there I'd definitely be getting in touch with her. She's given me some helpful suggestions off list regarding flyball training with Halo.

It is Greta! We had our first session with her today - she is fantastic and we did some really good work with Ruger together. I like that she does the local flyball team too - thats something that I want to look into after we get Ruger to a better place!

onyx'girl · 08-16-2011, 07:21 PM

I love these type of updates!

08-10-2011, 11:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
backtothesoil New Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 6	Are we completely hopeless?? Our puppy Ruger is about 7.5 months old, and while he is absolutely fantastic in most aspects of day to day life (really responsive to training, great with the kids, doesn't chew things that aren't his, and super calm and sweet) we are absolutely stuck on correcting a few difficult behaviors he has. Our biggest problem is that he seems to view everyone he meets as a potential ax murderer. I am really struggling to understand why he has such a difficult time accepting new people. We brought him home at 8 weeks, and immediately started to socialize him. I took him in stores that allowed dogs every day, to meet new people and accept treats from them (hoping to teach him that new people were a good thing). We joined a puppy play group at 10 weeks old, where we met with other puppies and their owners for romping and socialization for an hour each week. He has been to crowded places with little to no problems (apparently there are no bad guys at the farmers market) but in one on one situations with someone he doesnt know its like a train wreck. On leash he barks and backs away, in the house off leash he gets right up in someones personal space and barks his brains out. If there is any area that we have settled into for any amount of time, it is then off limits to anyone else, making picnics and visits to the vets offices a nerve wracking experience. For training he has done a 6 week puppy class, which he did really good in, and we are now in private training, 3 lessons in. While his trainer has been excellent in helping him to learn to walk politely, to learn down stays, sit/stay/comes and other tricks, I am not finding her advice for polite greeting to be helping at all. She has him in a pinch collar, and says to "correct him" for barking, and treat him for being quiet on command. But I find that he gets so worked up in his defense mode that he isn't interested in treats. And I really don't think he is connecting the correction to the being quiet to the treat he is eating. I have tried distracting him with a command, and that hasn't really been much help. We are having absolutely no luck with greeting people in our home...and I am feeling at a complete loss about it. Oh wise strangers on the internet...are we hopeless? Can my sweet, gentle, lovable boy ever be taught to let people approach without trying to guard me/our area? Will we ever be able to welcome people into our home without him going nuts? We got him to be part of our family, and to be able to go everywhere with us, but this barking and defensive behavior are really crushing our dreams. I feel like we are doing everything all wrong, and its making me feel so sad!

08-10-2011, 11:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
onyx'girl Crowned Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: SW, MI Posts: 17,605	Is this the only trainer you have access to? I would look for a GSD club or other venue to work on his issues. The book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt has exercises that will help with the behaviors your dog is exhibiting. If you can find a class nearby based on the book that would really help. BUT, a dog that is like the one you describe generally has to be managed thru life to deal with the temperament it has. Maturity will mellow out the dog with proper management, but dogs that are of lower threshold are not going to be cured by any amount of training....you have to learn how to manage it, see things before they excel and nip the behavior in the bud before it begins. I have an almost 5 yr old that was the same dog you describe(if I let her have her way when she was younger). We still have to deal with it, and I can't put her in situations where she is over her threshold/comfort level. It is what it is... __________________ Jane~ Kept by Onyx, Kacie and Gideon v Wildhaus aka Karlo

08-10-2011, 11:54 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mom2Shaman Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Dunlap, CA Posts: 314	I was feeling just this way last weekend as my 6-month old boy was a nightmare camping (barked at every person he saw on leash, from the rig, from the X-pen, from the truck). Today I took him to the lake and he was soliciting pets from strangers, glared at a few, but never barked, and only shied if people moved to pet him too fast. No aggression, just a slight shy. Just keep it up, don't coddle but correct the behavior. He's in his "punk" age and hopefully perspective will catch up if you don't let this behavior be accepted and get set. __________________ Lyn -- Mom 2 Shaman von Raesfeld

08-11-2011, 08:33 AM	#4 (permalink)
valreegrl Master Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Southeast PA, USA Posts: 608	Fear. At this age he is entering his fear stage, and correcting that fear is not the way to go. You want to build his confidence through positive methods. I would stop using the pinch collar and begin positive reinforcement. The book Control Unleashed mentioned previously is a great start. You can utilize the LAT command in this instance. I also agree with finding a trainer who specializes in rehabilitation and behavior modification. He is so young you can change the mindset really quickly, and by the sounds of your trainer, they are great at teaching foundations but not behavior mod. Especially since their advise is to give a correction. Realize, your dogs reaction to strangers, although misguided, is a warning to stay away. Correcting that warning will do just that, correct the warning and down the road he will no longer give a warning. This escalates the problem not correct it. __________________ Weiss Timberwolf von Sangmeister - born 06/10/09 Roxy the Rockstar Kardashian - born 09/02/10

08-16-2011, 07:21 PM	#10 (permalink)
onyx'girl Crowned Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: SW, MI Posts: 17,605	I love these type of updates! __________________ Jane~ Kept by Onyx, Kacie and Gideon v Wildhaus aka Karlo

08-15-2011, 12:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
backtothesoil New Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 6	I want to give you all a big huge thank you hug - this information is exactly what we needed! Thank you, thank you, thank you!! After our 3rd visit with that trainer, I really started to feel unsure about her methods, as she seemed to be getting more aggressive with physical correction. She was really pushing us to put him in an E-Collar, and start using that every aspect of training. After hearing how damaging this sort of training could be when he is so fearful, I am really glad that I went with my gut and told her no, and that you all have been here to step in with some fantastic alternative options! So for an update, I ordered the Control Unleashed book from Amazon, and joined their Yahoo group. Through the CU website, I found a new trainer in our area who is a CDBC and CPDT-KA, and she does private training and classes based on the CU principles. We are in the process of scheduling our first training session with her, and I have high hopes that she will teach both us and Ruger the skills we need to move through this together and come out the other side as a really great team. I just really want to thank everyone who took the time to reply to my thread, and to give us the ideas and help we needed to get on the right path!

08-16-2011, 01:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
codmaster Crowned Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: California, US Posts: 4,762	Good luck with your dog!

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