Thoughts & opinions? I found this on a reddit thread where a user says this is a common practice of "choking a dog off a ball" to help build drive. 2nd thread Can somebody elaborate/educate on this?
I saw this on a friends FB page with her response like 'oh my god, this saddens me, he should be in the deepest of crap after what he did to that poor dog..'
but I wasn't shocked. I thought it was normal for a K-9 unit to be handled like that when need be. I watched it a couple of times more and it looks like he picks something up off the ground before walking back to the car and the dog acted like he wanted to keep playing.
People are way too sensitive these days.
but I do agree with some of the posts. I don't think he needed to lift the dog up off the ground like that.. or use the leash to hit, but it looked more like a tap over an actual hit. Maybe he's a noob with having a K-9 or he's a noob with the technique, but overall I didn't think it was 'oh my god, dog abuse!!!' People need to calm it down and stop trying to put anything that isn't labeled as hugging, petting, or babying as animal abuse, I think. I've seen videos where wild life are hunting prey and people are commenting like 'they should shoot that lion! so mean to that poor -insert animal here that lions usually go for-' and I just sit there and face palm.
BUT YEAH.
Animal abuse? no.
Improper use of a technique? probably. most definitely. maybe. yes.
But, I've got to say for some reason I find that video disturbing. They played it on the local news the other night. Same reaction, there's just something about it.
This is coming from someone who trains with a prong, who argues against banning ecollars and someone who has seen dogs choked out in training and NOT had the same reaction.
I'm not overly sensitive, I grew up on farm, I watched animals be slaughtered for food.
I can't put my finger on it. The only thing I can come up with is maybe even for someone who admittedly is not an expert trainer that officer's handling of the dog was so sloppy that even people who are NOT softies about these training techniques are bothered.
Further I'm sick and tired of Police officers making excuses. The supposed 'experts' on the policeone page are saying things that conflict with what I have learned from experts on this board and in person, including police officers I know personally.
IMO there are too many excuses on the part of some of these depts. and handlers (not all mind you) but IMO this department may well be getting a black eye it deserves and rather then making excuses and bullying people on a FB page they should work on better training! What those guys are saying, with excuse, after excuse, after excuse (like one guy said you can't train an out after a dog tastes 'blood', really?! )
What they are really saying is they can't train their dogs.
I think the reason it was disturbing, even though I too have seen dogs handled roughly in training and not batted an eye, was because the officers use of aversive techniques was sloppy and ineffective. It's one thing to watch a handler perform something aversive on a dog and have the dog respond (in a decent amount of time) but to see the dog repeatedly manhandled and nothing happen... that's the disturbing part. At least to me.
Whole heartedly agree. Constantly hanging a dog to no effect is abuse. The officer seemed out of his league. Hanging didn't work so he weakly slapped the dog with the leash? Might as well have tried tickling him too.
Either way great dog. Where can I get one of those?
I agree 100% Gwen!
Big difference between correction and hanging completely off of the ground!
I am for punishment if needed too proof a known command!
David Winners showed the proper way! The only time that dog should have been completely off the ground
Would have been if he turned on the handler!
Bill
what a very very strange video. The juxtaposition of the entire thing, the calmness of the outside section with the arrest , compared to the man's in-house chaos.
Here is a successful apprehension , substance possibly found , the perp up against the car , calm, the officer security guard (different outfit) keeping watch, the k9 handler going off to the side to recover something in the dogs mouth , the dog going back to the cruiser with attitude --- officer drapes leash over shoulder and goes to the man arrested and slaps on the cuffs. The dog was not straining or pulling aggressively to the man - so we don't know where the control was lost.
Meanwhile in the house there is conflict and cussing and who knows what else . Buddy with the camera has window sash in portion of video away from action.
It wasn't good handling -- in the situation though time is of the essence -- not an opportunity for a training session - he does have a suspect he needs to get back to. Who knows what the dog had in his mouth? Difficult to correct if the dog is wearing a wide flat collar .
Need to go back for retraining , the team , dog and handler.
Looks to be a pretty tough , dog, may be pig-headed stubborn .
These are not poodles with bandanas .
This comment I make because in schutzhund there are dogs with agitation collars, AND pinch collars , and e-collars on as tools to modify behaviour , particularly in bite work when the dog is over the top in excitement and does not want to out.
That said -- buddy with the camera , keep him away from the BSP, keep him away from schutzhund , he would probably faint if he saw stick work and the courage routine .
He would probably have issues with David's picture .
Having dogs in service , you also get stories back on what the bad guys are prepared to do to the dog, well you know some of the worst case outcomes .
Need to go back for retraining , the team , dog and handler.
Looks to be a pretty tough , dog, may be pig-headed stubborn .
These are not poodles with bandanas .
This comment I make because in schutzhund there are dogs with agitation collars, AND pinch collars , and e-collars on as tools to modify behaviour , particularly in bite work when the dog is over the top in excitement and does not want to out.
That said -- buddy with the camera , keep him away from the BSP, keep him away from schutzhund , he would probably faint if he saw stick work and the courage routine .
He would probably have issues with David's picture .
I was thinking the same thing. Tough, hard dog, maybe has an "out" problem, both dog and handler would benefit from more training and proofing. But the dog does not act "abused", in fact his tail is wagging and he's still full of himself after the correction.
Honestly, I read the comments before watching the video and was expecting to see something much, much worse. I watched it again to see if maybe I missed something the first time. It looks to me like a relatively inexperienced handler with a very strong dog. Abuse? It sure looks like it to John Q. Public, and without context, that's how it will be perceived to most people.
Hanging / choking a dog has a place in training detection dogs, especially if they are 2 years old and have no out training. This is something that has to be done right to avoid damage to the dog. Yes, it's a hard dog and isn't bothered by it at all. It has been conditioned through repetition. I get choked, the game starts again, repeated over and over in training.
He missed the first time, the collar was too low on the neck, but he hung the dog anyways. It didn't work. Then he adjusts the collar up higher on the neck and tries again but has no control because of all the leash between the collar and his hand. He gets tired or loses control and tries again. Each time the dog is getting choked and keeping the ball. It is being rewarded for hanging on by terrible handling.
This can create a dog that you have to pass out to get it's ball back, and that creates brain damage. I don't personally care if the dog can take it. He is still harming the dog. I guarantee if you look under the fur on the top of that dog's neck there are bruises from the choke pinching.
I recently saw someone posting about prongs and how the thyroid gland can be damaged from constricting collars. Supposedly Dr Dodds is against them because of it. I wonder how many studies have been done to support that theory.
David, did you see a ball in that vid? It is hard to make out what the dog actually was holding.
I can't be sure it is a ball, but what else would he pick up and pocket? If it's a bag of dope, I doubt he would slide it into his pocket, but would rather let it fall and leave it until the dog was put up.
From my perspective, he's choking the dog off a reward. It may be something different, but I don't know what it would be.
Petitioning hammond, indiana Mayor
The voters of Hammond and Lake County demand immediate firing of the officer involved in the beating of his K-9 partner.
Jamie Steinkamp
Petition by
Jamie Steinkamp
St John, IN
Animal abuse is bad enough. But, when it is abuse by an officer to his K9 partner it is even more disturbing. Officers K-9 partners will give their life for their human partners every single day and not think twice. For an officer to beat their partner is unacceptable.
The voters of Hammond and Lake County demand immediate firing of the officer involved in the beating of his K-9 partner. This dog puts his life on the line every single day to protect his human partner. He is in turn choked and beat by the person he is suppose to be protecting, his partner. The entire country is outraged by this. This is not a representation of our police force, or any police force. K-9 partners should not be treated like punching bags. This officer would not have choked and hit his human partner. This behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
To:
hammond, indiana Mayor
Thomas McDermott Jr
Immediate firing of the Hammond K9 Officer involved in the beating of his K9 partner
Sincerely,
[Your name]
News
Mayor's broadcast
Jamie Steinkamp
by Jamie Steinkamp
Petition Organizer
As promised, here is the link for the mayors broadcast on the local radio station. The volume is low, I apologize, but so far, its the best I have. The discussion regarding the officer starts at about 2:50.
I have been told by a few sources that this may actually be how the officer was trained. If that is the case, then we will be going after the training methods and not the individual officer. You cannot punish somebody for acting the way they were trained. This is all preliminary though. We have not heard an official explanation from anybody in the department. I will keep everyone posted.
Until then, please keep sharing. We must keep this in the public eye.
Without the spotlight on the mayor, NOTHING will change and these dogs will continue to be abused.
Oh I agree Carmen. But not all dogs come out of a class. 10 minutes with a good instructor could alleviate the problem by showing the handler how to deal with the issue and train a positive out. The problem wouldn't be gone in 10 minutes, but the handler would hopefully understand how to work on it.
Every dog at the kennels is crazy possessive when we first get them (and some for much longer). This is working dog training 101.
The thing about this situation is, many are going against the police K9 training techniques(possibly with good reason) and the ones supporting the video are making their case worse because they are calling everyone stupid/ignorant as those commenting aren't in the LEO world.
It would be better if they admitted the handler needed some training, instead of upholding him.
Now the AR's are getting on board and petitioning. The petition states that the dog was beaten, he was not!
Of course he was handled abusively, but it was far from a beating.
Cases like this add fuel to the AR's arsenals, and anyone that is anti cop will keep badmouthing them as this video keeps getting so much exposure, I've seen it over and over in my fb newsfeed.
what page? This is about the norm that I read from the policeone.com page:
" Any body commenting a k9 handler? If not then hush. It's a tool not a pet"
On the first page on the site you posted! Every cop is not for the abuse!
PS I am a k9 handler " trainer! Anyone that thinks that is OK !
Well it is not!
It's sad, really, when you read those face book posts.
Convos seem to end up just being caricatures of both sides, stereotypical one liners most of them. I blame that to a certain extent on 'social' media.
There have been a lot more balanced and objective comments here, maybe some of those police officers should hop on over here.
Maybe the police officer in question was inexperienced or maybe he was poorly trained himself or he's just not a good K9 handler and the culture in his department allows for it, which is NOT unheard of.
There's a lot of ego involved we see it here and IRL with people just doing basic training, they don't like to be told they are doing something wrong.
So I'm going to go out on what I consider a rather safe limb and say, nothing will come of this in the long run, it'll blow over and they'll carry on as before.
The only thing I am going to say, though it is probably totally obvious is that with the spectrum of pet dog training as wide as oceans, with people being from clearly abusive, balanced: yank and crank and dominance alpha type stuff; balanced: correction collars and positive techniques; balanced: positive techniques with negative markers when necessary; and what some people believe is positive only / totally permissive. And most of these have a spectrum of skill and experience on the trainers part.
Why would we think that k9 training is like McDonalds, the same in Ohio as it is in NY and Canada, and maybe Mexico, California, China, and India. There are probably plenty of different schools of thought on how the K9 should be trained and treated, and the handlers are probably on the same kind of spectrum of experience and skill.
Ok, I lied, I have another thing to say, and that is, if I screw up my training, I get a dog that doesn't stand for an exam, or fails supervised separation, or doesn't give me a snazzy finish. I get a 93 rather than a 100 or a 184 out of 200. Maybe I don't qualify. If LEOs screw up their training, someone gets hurt, their job is on the line, their dog is maybe put down.
If they do not keep the upper hand (with dogs that are probably selected and conditioned to have strong personalities) in whatever manner they find necessary depending on their training and experience the consequences can be pretty stiff. I guess I might be more likely to get a bee in my bonnet if the dog is dead due to training techniques than I am about a dog that seems to be just fine after the fact.
And why should k9 trainers be any different from the rest of us when it comes to the only thing two trainers can agree upon is what the third is doing wrong?
Still tho, they are in the public eye all the time. Every move they make is pretty much on youtube the next day, does not matter one bit if he was in the right and if 100 trainers said yey this is acceptable. He is against regular people for the most part who dont look at this video and go "this is fine" they look at this vid and go " fire that nutter"
I bet if the K9 had been latched onto the person leaning against the cruiser and had refused to out, then everyone would be saying the handler should have choked the dog off. That K9s are dangerous, need better training, etc. Darned if you do and darned if you don't. Since I have no experience in K9 training or handling, I'll listen to those that do.
...and those that do have experience don't agree amongst each other.
I think it's fair to say that there has been a shift in practices, as Bill mentioned earlier, next generation.
My trainer who has helped as a decoy for police K9s has said a lot of these guys have a bad relationship with their dogs.
Also, in talking with police officers I know about K9 units I've heard more then once those who get those posts often get them out of politically motivated decision making higher up rather then which man or women has the best dog handling aptitude.
I bet if the K9 had been latched onto the person leaning against the cruiser and had refused to out, then everyone would be saying the handler should have choked the dog off. That K9s are dangerous, need better training, etc. Darned if you do and darned if you don't. Since I have no experience in K9 training or handling, I'll listen to those that do.
IMO, it takes a certain kind of person to be a good handler, and if a prospect just isn't that kind of person, they are better off without a dog. The dog is definitely better off for sure.
My class of MIL handlers had 8 out of 25 make it.
Those numbers got better as the selection process was refined. The program was involved in assisting units to select handlers.
I subscribe to the K9Cop magazine and there are strides being made thru several articles to change the yank and crank style into more motivational training.
When Onyx was going thru her reactive aggressive phase, I consulted a retired K9 trainer(he trained dogs for depts/he was a retired handler) and he told me to string her up until she complied. And if that meant passing out, so be it. I didn't follow his advice.
I've trained with a few K9 handlers and they also train in sport so they are more about motivation, but some still use the chain choke collar, which I'd never, ever put on my dogs.
This case may just open some depts eyes to the training and handling/eyes are on them. So they may resort to more motivational methods. Even hard dogs can be trained without harsh corrections. The corrections need to be meaningful, but that doesn't mean unfair or harsh.
I have watched Cesar Milan's show and have seen him do far worse to dogs. The "dog whisperer" typically strings dogs up until they pass out. Then with some careful and skillful editing you see him petting a panting, gassed out, "calm, submissive" dog. What Cesar does is way more brutal than the poor handling I saw on that video and he's a "pro."
Yup, always good to get Lou's perspective. That's not a rant, that's good information from someone who has a balanced perspective.
(The only slight disagreement I have is with reference to a larger climate of political correctness as I've noticed when it comes to dogs being "furry kids" it's more monolithic in nature not "PC" but that treads into forbidden topics.....)
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