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Police Officer Accused of K9 Abuse

15K views 109 replies 30 participants last post by  Gwenhwyfair 
#1 ·
#30 ·
Must agree with post # 27. I am not all that appalled at what I saw. Outing a dog must "mean" what I call to; "drop the ball or release?"

Throw the dog to the ground, over a ball, tail between the legs, a very different story in my mind. I never needed to do this, but I don't have that type of dog.

One thing I will mention, though. The verbs in this particular video are pretty harsh, even though it does not bother me, the mods. here delete words much less harsh, so I would like some kind of reference point at what is acceptable and what is not, because "here" there is no clear picture of what's okay and what's not...
 
#31 ·
Whoever trained this handler should be criticized too, because what's happening in the video seems to be done in a matter-of-fact way, as though nothing is wrong and that's how they were taught. I'm sure bad training can happen with LEO K9's too, just like in everyday life?
 
#43 ·
A dogtra on 127 just made the dog fight harder and get pissed. Pronging the dog off the bite just made it redirect on the handler. Ended up taking one good muzzle beating and two prong collars with people pulling in separate directions to punish the dog and make it condition to thinking going after the handler was not an option.
 
#36 · (Edited)
We've had threads about this in the past.

Police aren't training outs in some depts. There was arguing between people who have been or are currently working LEO K9 handlers/trainer. So it's not a settled matter even between professional LEO K9 handlers/trainers.

BUT It would follow that if they don't think training outs are necessary this is the sort of thing you're going to see.

In some cases (like one near me recently when the K9 bit an officer and they used a break stick to get the dog off of a POLICE officer) and the other case in SC where they had to cut the pants off the suspect because the mali wouldn't out. They tried flanking and choking that dog out too.

I know police K9s don't need snappy competition OB on them but there's the other side of the coin and this is an example IMO.
 
#95 ·
Police aren't training outs in some depts. There was arguing between people who have been or are currently working LEO K9 handlers/trainer. So it's not a settled matter even between professional LEO K9 handlers/trainers.
I've been part of those arguments. Just about universally, people who are not training the out, do not know how to do so without harming the rest of the dog's work. Per the courts, and common sense, a K−9 is required to be under the control of is handler at all times. Seems to me, that if the handler can't get his dog to stop biting when the handler is a distance away, he's not under control. Just the same as if he couldn't get the dog to sit or recall. It's just a matter of time until these cases start hitting the courts.

Getting the out is surprisingly easy if the right methods are used. I've never had any trouble doing so. I've worked with some dogs that have had a cattle prod applied to their testicles in efforts to get them to release a bite and still would not. My hardest case, I had that dog releasing on a verbal command in about 45 minutes. Others who have suffered the same abuse, and I think that is abuse, took less time.

The out is not just for the crook. Other people get bitten by these dogs sometimes, innocent bystanders and sometimes other officers. In the past couple of years officers have shot and killed several police dogs that bit other officers, would not release the bite and so the officers handled it themselves. I know of officers who have received career ending injuries from their department's police dogs. There's no excuse for this, except ignorance.

BUT It would follow that if they don't think training outs are necessary this is the sort of thing you're going to see.
I think that there's a significant difference between releasing a ball/toy and releasing a suspect. Different drives are involved and so for the best results, different approaches are needed. Lots of people think this is an OB issue, I used to as well, but then I found a much better way, working with, instead of against the dog's drives.

In some cases (like one near me recently when the K9 bit an officer and they used a break stick to get the dog off of a POLICE officer) and the other case in SC where they had to cut the pants off the suspect because the mali wouldn't out. They tried flanking and choking that dog out too.
That last bite you refer to, went on for about a minute and a half on a suspect who was completely non-resisting. It should have been stopped immediately after the dog made the bite.

I know police K9s don't need snappy competition OB on them but there's the other side of the coin and this is an example IMO.
Sorry for the rant, this topic makes me a bit crazy. (Some say that's a short trip!) lol

Now to this dog. I fear another rant coming on. I think we're seeing a poorly trained handler applying a technique improperly. It looks as if the dog has a ball and the handler is trying to get it away from him. Lifting the dog's front feet off the ground to cut off his air, aka choking him, is a common method to do this when the dog is not responsive to a voice command. But this handler apparently feels that if a little is good, then a lot is better. He's wrong. The hits with the leash are dumb, but they're not hard enough that they are abusive.

The uproar is due to several things. First is the fact that this country is going down the toilet due to the emphasis placed on political correctness of wannabe−do−gooders of all kinds. From banning big sodas to keeping speakers from college campuses, the place is going off the rails. Anything but feeding a dog a treat, is abuse to some of them. Mostly they have no idea how to get a dog to do anything unless they have a treat in their hands. I'm not talking about so−called PP trainers, just the pet owners who think their dogs are little furry children. Now with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and the rest, they get a voice, the same as someone who knows what the heck he's doing. And with politicians afraid that they might lose a vote, they over−react and the result is that this officer gets suspended and his dog taken away. When this sort of thing happens, it cheapens situations where REAL abuse is going.
 
#38 ·
Hi Bill,

There is a subforum for police K9s here on the board, scroll down it's towards the bottom of the board. There's been some threads where experienced handlers and trainers have commented on this. If you look at those threads they can give you a more in depth look at the arguments that surround this issue from both sides made by people who actually work with these dogs.

I personally know a retired police officer who feels that the trend amongst current police K9s and training is loosing balance. Balance between a dog that can and has to handle 'real' situations vs control for the wellbeing of officers and innocents.

Lou Castle has provided very interesting input on this topic in the past (speaking of e collar training).


Not training out makes no sense to me! Every dog I have had would bite a person" out then rebite ! New gen. Way of thinking over my head"
Please explain the reason behind this way of thinking!

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#44 ·
there are still some real hard hard , stubborn hard, stubborn dogs around. Here of them in some of the Dutch and Belgian lines. Long ago Bungalow dogs would represent these genetics.
Some of the Malatesta dogs were like this . Lewis?

That dog was like a terrier -- after the action off to the side he goes back to the cruiser , tail up at full mast and wagging away . That wasn't even a drop in the bucket for him. Lots of attitude on the dog.

It's hard to say what happened before the guy was caught . There may have been a scuffle , the dog gets pumped - his fight drive aroused . Not like schutzhund where he is allowed a bite . Got to get a handle on things .

Dog and handler might not be a good match.
 
#46 ·
Thanks cobra". Train hold boy! It means out lol. Crazy world bill

That is one crazy dog Baillif! Did they ever teach the out? Don't have a clue how strong the e. Collar was as I said never used one I have seen a dog repeatedly grab a electric fence! I know what that feels like.
Ever try using a water hose it works on some dogs. Thanks for reply Bill

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#47 ·
My whole take on it, the dog has probably saved that handlers life more than once. You treat a partner with respect. If this LEO is allowed to remain I hope he remembers that his dog is his partner. If the dog redirects on the handler, it says something about their relationship. And I know, the K9 is probably a nutjob, but the timing of the stringing obviously wasn't effective so he had to do it over and over...bad handler.
 
#48 ·
Carmen guess I have been lucky" my dogs seem to have the genetic o.b. that you talk about! I am a trainer not a breeder like yourself! I know a lot about German shepherds" but not as much as you!
I was taught they should have balance in drives" and willing too please.
What are your feelings on this other type of Shep? Thanks Bill

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#49 ·
#50 ·
They usually are. That's part of the problem, *If* there is a problem with training (as your post previous to the below notes, rightly I think) they won't fix the problem because they don't want to recognize /admit *if* a problem exists.

It ends up either being about the potential of lawsuit which is cited both as a cause and solution in the past, or 'us against them' defensiveness.


round and round we go.....


comments on this fb page are in favor of the handler (coming from other LEO's) Wonder if the mayor will change his point of view? Or will the AR's add it to their agenda....
https://www.facebook.com/policeone/posts/10152434076354740
 
#51 ·
I read on another fb page that this dog possibly had a bag of narcotics, not a ball in his mouth. Not sure that is true, but I could understand the handlers actions if this is the truth...ingesting that would be a death sentence.
 
#55 ·
I don't know anything about k9 training as I haven't trained a k9. But what I saw there didn't make me feel concerned about the dog's welfare. It just didn't look all that bad to me.

Heck, we used to hold my grandmother's dachshund up by the slipper it was biting. The strikes with the leash didn't look grievous. The dog did not seem choked out. And the officer really did not appear out of control.

And to bring it into perspective, the cop in Miami-Dade county that killed his dog by kicking it, well he got reinstated with full back pay. I think if LEOs seriously abuse their dogs, they should be fined and fired. But I think maybe a group of K9 trainers ought to make that determination, because they can see what the guy was trying to accomplish, and whether or not such a dog should seriously be effected by it.

A lot of departments have limited budgets for their k9s, they use dogs that are not owned by the village/city/county/state. They train their own dogs. And some of their training may not be as progressive as some of us might want to see. I think you got to take all things into consideration.
 
#56 ·
After watching the video on my computer, I see the leash hits are not that hard, but there is no reason for them. Hanging the dog like this is IMO wrong and abusive. There is no reason for it other than bad handling. Many detection dogs are choked off the ball, and that in itself isn't abusive IMO, it's just the way this handler was doing it in the video.

Here's a couple pictures of me choking Fama off the ball before she would out reliably. Lots of control over the dog. No pinching of the neck skin by using the leash on the choker. I wouldn't normally do this with a choker, but rather a flat collar, but I didn't have one on her when the photographer stopped us for the photo shoot. It was an impromptu situation when he came across us in the break area.





If the method in the video is how the handler was taught to out the dog, I suppose the responsibility for the abuse lies with the trainer and not the handler.
 
#61 ·
I thought the dog had something in his mouth and the handler was trying to get him to drop it. I didn't think it was a ball, but I thought that the officer bent down and picked something up.
 
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