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Old 02-24-2013, 03:57 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gwenhwyfair View Post
Yeah, he should have told it straight the first time. that's true.

Still 1) it was a shot gun not a rifle with a long range

2) Stand Your Ground/Castle Doctrine only applies in the case of humans?

Livestock is considered personal property and in some states you can protect your personal property with lethal force. In the case of dogs it usually doesn't end up with the shooter being charged.

As someone who grew up in the country and had cattle and horses I can attest to the fact that stray/loose dogs represent a real loss to farmers. Often small farmers are getting by on razor thin margins (I don't know if this is the case with the shooter in this story but generally it's a truism).

Growing up in farm country there was an unspoken rule that if a dog got loose and onto the farmer's property it would probably be shot. We all knew it. The three S.S.S's - shoot, shovel and shut up. The farmer is 72 years old (per linked article that I did read in it's entirety). He's probably old school.

Further, when we had problems in the past and would ask neighbors to keep their dogs contained they often denied it was their dog or they felt their dog(s) had the right to roam. The former was usually easy to take care of. As one farmer told a suburbanite dog owner, "I shot the dog that wasn't yours."

I agree with Selzer. While this is tragic anyone who moves out to the country should be aware farmers have taken a lot of flack from city folks who move out and then complain about smells, flies, tractors going too slow down the road, and that dogs can't run free.
Are you assuming the house is a safe distance away because he use a shot gun? Who's to say the house/property line wasn't 50ft away? We don't know the line of sight and I'm sure the police are aware of the effective range of a shot gun with what ever type of shells he used. The fact that he lied about it initially tells me all I need to know.

I agree with most of what Selzer and the others are saying in regards to farmers protecting their livestock, but I don't agree it's a "one size fits all" approach to every encounter with a dog on your property.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:15 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Actually I didn't indicate whether I knew the house was a safe distance or not. I only pointed that out for the sake of accurate discussion that the gun used was a shot gun, which does minimize the question of range. As to whether the police are correct that will depend on how this comes down in court.

We are all assuming some things to a certain extent.....in fairness right.

Agreed, misleading or lying to the police was a dumb thing to do and reflects negatively on him. I'm not sure why he did that, he may have been really taken by surprise because dogs being shot (when they are on the shooters property) and drawing a LE response is unusual...or at least it used to be especially in rural areas. Still, he should have just been straight up and honest.

I did notice at the end of the article it mentioned he expressed regret.

I hear you about the 'one size fits all' but you know.....(in general) a lot of people move out to the country and just don't think beyond the tips of their noses. They don't think about how hard it is to be a farmer and that it's NOT cute when their dog chases the calves. I've seen it so many times. I think part of the problem here is some people don't realize that it is a chronic on going problem for farmers.

If you move out to the country, make sure you keep your dogs contained.

BTW- a neighbor who has goats (show/milk/meat) which I learned are worth some $$$ now-a-days was having problems with strays/loose dogs killing his goats. For some reason goats really kick that prey drive into high gear. He bought two Great Pyrenees and trained them to be live stock guardians. Last I spoke with him he had not lost any goats since....but indicated the pyerness would kill any dog that messed with 'their' goats. I wonder how that would play out in court.....





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Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
Are you assuming the house is a safe distance away because he use a shot gun? Who's to say the house/property line wasn't 50ft away? We don't know the line of sight and I'm sure the police are aware of the effective range of a shot gun with what ever type of shells he used. The fact that he lied about it initially tells me all I need to know.

I agree with most of what Selzer and the others are saying in regards to farmers protecting their livestock, but I don't agree it's a "one size fits all" approach to every encounter with a dog on your property.
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Last edited by Gwenhwyfair; 02-24-2013 at 04:19 PM. Reason: added italicized to clarify
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:19 PM   #53 (permalink)
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[/B]


Maybe because someone was there to stop them? HHHMMM!

Would you want to bet that free roaming dogs will NOT kill any livestock?

Many (most?) free roaming dogs, esp. in a pack, WILL attack and kill domwestic livestock!

They are animals after all, and no matter what a deluded owner may think, little Fido WILL KILL! They are predators!

And they cannot be allowed to do so.
No, it's because they weren't predatory dogs to begin with. He admitted that they weren't chasing his livestock, he shot the first dog as it was approaching him in a friendly manner, and the second dog was clearly scared off from the first gunfire. He could have caught them and held them. I think it's pretty heartless to kill an animal if they aren't being a threat to your livestock and if you had the option to capture them and find their owners. Just being a dog isn't a threat.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:45 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gwenhwyfair View Post
Actually I didn't indicate whether I knew the house was a safe distance or not. I only pointed that out for the sake of accurate discussion that the gun used was a shot gun, which does minimize the question of range. As to whether the police are correct that will depend on how this comes down in court.

We are all assuming some things to a certain extent.....in fairness right.

Agreed, misleading or lying to the police was a dumb thing to do and reflects negatively on him. I'm not sure why he did that, he may have been really taken by surprise because dogs being shot (when they are on the shooters property) and drawing a LE response is unusual...or at least it used to be especially in rural areas. Still, he should have just been straight up and honest.

I did notice at the end of the article it mentioned he expressed regret.

I hear you about the 'one size fits all' but you know.....(in general) a lot of people move out to the country and just don't think beyond the tips of their noses. They don't think about how hard it is to be a farmer and that it's NOT cute when their dog chases the calves. I've seen it so many times. I think part of the problem here is some people don't realize that it is a chronic on going problem for farmers.

If you move out to the country, make sure you keep your dogs contained.

BTW- a neighbor who has goats (show/milk/meat) which I learned are worth some $$$ now-a-days was having problems with strays/loose dogs killing his goats. For some reason goats really kick that prey drive into high gear. He bought two Great Pyrenees and trained them to be live stock guardians. Last I spoke with him he had not lost any goats since....but indicated the pyerness would kill any dog that messed with 'their' goats. I wonder how that would play out in court.....
When I saw he used a shot gun, I wondered about the same thing, are his neighbors close? IDK. One of my co-workers raises goats and they are becoming big business for pasture restoring and weed control, and meat, at least from what he tells me.

On the city/country thing, My sister and I are the only members of my immediate family who live in a city. My parents, uncles, most of my cousins etc... Are all either farmers or live on acrage/rural areas of Wisconsin, Minnesota and Ontario. I spent several summers learning why I never want to be a dairy farmer. It was to keep me out of trouble and it worked. One of my first lessons was the difference between hay and straw. I was supposed to put straw down for the cows when they came into barn to be milked, but not paying attention to what I was told, I threw down lots and lots of hay, maybe a little extra so the cows could be nice and comfy. Yes I got my butt chewed and then some. farming is very hard work, often with little reward, I have tons of respect for these people.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:06 PM   #55 (permalink)
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(in red) LOL! I bet you did! hehehe....I can imagine, thanks for the chuckle.

Wanna get a good work out, bale and stack hay under the hot summer sun.

My Grandpa was a dairy farmer in Canada! I'd rather run some beef cattle tho (grass fed if I have enough land) and maybe some dairy goats if I could...

It is hard work....but if I had to do it over again...I would not leave it behind.

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Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
When I saw he used a shot gun, I wondered about the same thing, are his neighbors close? IDK. One of my co-workers raises goats and they are becoming big business for pasture restoring and weed control, and meat, at least from what he tells me.

On the city/country thing, My sister and I are the only members of my immediate family who live in a city. My parents, uncles, most of my cousins etc... Are all either farmers or live on acrage/rural areas of Wisconsin, Minnesota and Ontario. I spent several summers learning why I never want to be a dairy farmer. It was to keep me out of trouble and it worked. One of my first lessons was the difference between hay and straw. I was supposed to put straw down for the cows when they came into barn to be milked, but not paying attention to what I was told, I threw down lots and lots of hay, maybe a little extra so the cows could be nice and comfy. Yes I got my butt chewed and then some. farming is very hard work, often with little reward, I have tons of respect for these people.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:26 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I have livestock. I will shoot stray dogs that come onto my property. It is my choice that for the dog's first offense, he'll get a spray of rat shot. Normally that will leave a great enough impression on him to never come back again. I don't care if the dog is just taking a casual stroll through my place or if it's stalking my livestock. He'll get the same treatment.

If the dog decides that my livestock out weighs the risk of being shot and comes back for more, I won't use rat shot the next time.

If you think poorly of me for making that stand, then I ask you to just picture a mother goat, with it's guts torn out trying to protect her twins. It was the neighbor's dogs. This goat lived long enough for me to be notified (by my neighbors) that there was screaming coming from my place. I rushed home to find her, still alive. The vet was an hour out. I had to shoot her myself to put her out of her misery. I had two orphan babies to bottle feed. All because someone couldn't keep their dogs on their own property.

I ask you to picture a horse with drainage tubes running through both it's back legs because it was mauled by dogs. A very expensive show horse who never saw the inside of an arena again, but stayed on my feed bill till the day she died because it wasn't her fault that people can't keep their own dogs on their property.

I ask you to picture a horse with it's face split open because it was chased into a fence by dogs. Because people can't keep their own dogs on their property.

Not only does it totally break my heart to see any animal in pain, it causes me great rage to see pain come to my animals because others can't take responsibility of their own animals. And it causes me great rage that I have to defend my livestock against people who are idiots and their dogs suffer for it.

I keep a loaded rifle with rat shot. I will provide the benefit of the doubt for a dog that has escaped. Once. Once is all it gets.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:01 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Lillie,
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:33 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Lillie,
As I sat and pondered as to the possibilities of what is was you wanted to say...I came upon the possibility that Zombies broke through your door at the exact moment you were going to post.

I'm hoping that I'm wrong regarding that possibility.....
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:54 PM   #59 (permalink)
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As I sat and pondered as to the possibilities of what is was you wanted to say...I came upon the possibility that Zombies broke through your door at the exact moment you were going to post.

I'm hoping that I'm wrong regarding that possibility.....
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:45 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lilie View Post
As I sat and pondered as to the possibilities of what is was you wanted to say...I came upon the possibility that Zombies broke through your door at the exact moment you were going to post.

I'm hoping that I'm wrong regarding that possibility.....

And my guess is that you would be an expert on Zombies (just from your posts, of course).

But thank you for at least noticing - much appreciated!

And hopefully my post will be of real use to you as that was my hope that you could improve both you and your dog.
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