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Old 12-20-2012, 09:07 AM   #11 (permalink)
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WOW! It just never ends....
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:18 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I don't think it's a good idea, and not just because someone convicted of dog fighting or animal cruelty obviously already has a callous disregard for animals, but because having volunteered in a shelter I think if that is your only exposure to dogs it can further taint your view. I found volunteering at the shelter physically and emotionally exhausting and some days I went home wondering why I ever liked dogs in the first place. Some of them were just so insanely difficult to deal with, and I know it's not the dog's fault but it does wear on you over time, you'd have to be a drone to not ever be effected by it. Many shelters are inefficiently run and managed which just makes it more frustrating trying to get things done and do right by the dogs. If I wanted to truly rehabilitate someone who already had a very negative or apathetic view towards dogs I don't know that putting them in the shelter environment would really help give them a positive experience with dogs. I think the prison dog thing where the inmates get to work with a dog consistently one-on-one is better.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:23 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I didn't see anywhere in those stories that actually proved his even fought dogs or abused them. Does anyone have a more detailed link?

All I saw in that one is "evidence" of injured dogs, wtf is that? And 'dog fighting equipment' - which they don't even list. did YOU know? That things that can be considered fighting paraphernalia include:
Treadmills
Flirtpoles
Springpoles
Break sticks - Which EVERY bull-breed owner should have! I have some and no bullies!
Jenny Mills
Thick collars
Tethers and tethered dogs
OTHER ANIMALS - cats, chickens, dogs etc. - they'll call them bait even if they're happy and healthy.
Medical equipment - antibiotics, needles, routine and rabies shots, etc. etc.

Not saying he wasn't a dog fighter, but it's a **** near witch hunt nowadays.
Edit* Okay, I see he was involved in dog fighting - I found a better coverage of the story where he says he allowed fights on his property. But that doesn't change what I've said in a general sense of these cases. I'd still like to see pictures of all of the animals.


I think it's a great idea if the shelter is totally on board and understanding and absolutely will be on top of the person - what better punishment than having to give back to the animals? I'm sure he's not left alone with them. And who knows, maybe seeing a horrifically abused animal come in that still trusts the person will change something in him.

And it is NOT anything like a **cking PEDOPHILE working with kids! Someone who rapes and gets sexual arousal from little kids being ordered to go work with kids where he's going to get off, and someone who treats their dog bad or is accused of doing so, then being made to care for animals under supervision?? WTH
I'm sorry if I went overboard there, but I'm going to guess you haven't been around damaged people or been abused yourself as a child by a sexual predator?
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm not going to quote all of your post,APBTLOVE because I don't want to waste the space.
This isn't about the breed but about what people do to exploit the breed....so you don't have to defend the PB's!!!!

These were dog breeders who trains dogs to fight. They do that by using bait dogs! They sold their dogs exclusively to fighting rings. One of them had previous run ins with the law.
All you have to do is google their names and I'm sure other links will pop up.
And yes, anyone that abuses a child or animal should not be around children or animals as a part of their sentence. I doubt one judge in the nation would allow someone that hurts kids to be around them. That was the point I was making... Why should it be different for animals?

Sorry if I hit a sensitive spot, but reality is what it is. You didn't need to go off on that tangent, it was merely a comparison/obviously a bad one on my part.
You obviously are ok with dog fighting? Why would you want to see pics of injured or maimed dogs?
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
I'm not going to quote all of your post,APBTLOVE because I don't want to waste the space.
This isn't about the breed but about what people do to exploit the breed....so you don't have to defend the PB's!!!!

I'm not exactly defending Pit Bulls but the owners and breed fanciers, but you would be shocked at how many innocent GOOD owners are harassed and wrongly accused of dog fighting for owning items that dog fighters (and MANY other people) use. So I take it a with a huge grain of salt when I see vague articles like the first one. However, I see he WAS involved with dog fighting.

These were dog breeders who trains dogs to fight. They do that by using bait dogs! They sold their dogs exclusively to fighting rings. One of them had previous run ins with the law.
All you have to do is google their names and I'm sure other links will pop up.
And yes, anyone that abuses a child or animal should not be around children or animals as a part of their sentence. I doubt one judge in the nation would allow someone that hurts kids to be around them. That was the point I was making... Why should it be different for animals?
I won't go into the whole history of the breed, but bait dogs are not used but APBT breeders/fighters historically. There are sick psychos - wannbe thug pieces of garbage who let their Bully breeds tear up smaller or weaker animals because it makes them feel tough and that makes me want to vomit sitting here. APBTs are not trained to fight by using weak animals, they are not even trained.. most times they are "rolled" (that's what they call it, I'm not quite sure why) against a seasoned fighter for a short time when they hit adulthood to see if they have the want to fight before they are actually put into a fighting career where they would be put in real 'matches' that would be documented. If a dog didn't want to fight, they didn't and they would be taken out of the breeding program, otherwise they would just lose - by not fighting, not by dying or being maimed badly. And make the kennel/breeder and sire/dam look bad.

Sorry if I hit a sensitive spot, but reality is what it is. You didn't need to go off on that tangent, it was merely a comparison/obviously a bad one on my part.
You obviously are ok with dog fighting? Why would you want to see pics of injured or maimed dogs?
That's a serious and awful thing to say. I adore APBTs so I educated myself as much as possible about the breed, and their history is fighting. I cannot say I wish they never did it, because I wouldn't have the dogs I love so much. I could argue on both sides of the dog fighting debates.

Because they said there were injured animals, or "evidence" - I want to know what EVIDENCE of an injured animal is - either the animal is injured or not, it confused me, and they posted no pictures - they tend to exaggerate terribly when it comes to these things. Again, you'd be surprised. I bet if most of us shaved our GSDs you'd find scars and nicks all over them from life in general. I was told by an ACO that my foster dog was a fighting dog, of that he was certain. That dog lived with a family and lived as a pet her whole life - she had scars from a car accident and surgery and wore a Stillwater collar, and apparently that was enough to definitively say she was a seasoned fighting dog.

And yes, every story like this affects the breed badly. I would rather they be 100% factual. So in a way, I am defending the Pit Bull breed a whole, any misinformation about dog fighting, the breed, anything can and does hurt them.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
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As for the original topic.
And I'm not just saying this for people accused of dog fighting.
There is a difference between someone who actually gains pleasure and gratification from hurting a child - and there are those who get the same from hurting animals. Have you ever seen the 'crush' videos? Where they slowly, agonizingly crush small animals, puppies, kittens, rabbits etc. to death? Usually wearing severe high-heels - I got to see a Pit puppy have his little eyes gouged out with a heel for someone to get off sexually. The people who watch and get off to that - HECK no would I have them working with animals!! They belong in jail or a psych ward.

But someone who has hurt animals for whatever reason and not because they enjoyed it particularly - half of the little punks around the neighborhood don't seem to think dogs can even feel. Of course they don't care if their dog gets hurt, or about beating their dog for chewing a shoe. I think having them work with and learn about animals under supervision could help.
Or someone who neglects animals - puts a dog out back and forgets the small collar on her neck and tosses food out not paying attention. They just don't care - they don't care for their dog like they would a person because they don't see it as a thinking, feeling thing. And maybe having to see what thinking, feeling humans do to dogs and having to help these creatures would change someone's heart.

My granddad shot squirrels from his window because they made him mad by eating his pecans. Pointless, because there were enough pecans in that tree to feed a small country.

My own mom, raised by him, cooked crabs alive - it's how just about everyone does it. No remorse, no feelings for that little living thing. Just cover the pot and hear them scratch for a minute or so and then they're just dinner. She has done this all her life - I showed her how much compassion
I had, and told her numerous times they DO feel it, and it hit home. She does not cook them like that anymore.

Or how about the slaughterhouse workers? Do you think they could never regret what they've done?

I put so much time, love, and care (and cash too) into an old Pit Bull who was neglected by his owners while he was still under their care, THEY started to care for him more because they saw how much he meant to someone, and that he was actually worth something more than money. He was worth love and care - sure, not the average outcome, but it happens.

OR animal hoarders, who have dead and dying animals all over because it got out of hand, but they love them to death. Still technically abuse and neglect. They need help, not punishment.

Nothing angers me more, I've gone to extremes to save animals, namely dogs, from bad situations. One of the only times I have and will become violent is if you hurt an animal in front of me - I've marched my 5'2 self into a group of men (for lack of a better word) and taken a puppy from their hands while daring them to stop me because they were hanging him by a choke chain and taking turns hitting and kicking him 'to make him tough'.



And while I'd just as soon do the same to them, if they showed remorse and I could have made them understand how wrong they were, maybe even turned them around, I would rather do that. There is no better punishment that understanding and remorse.
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Last edited by APBTLove; 12-21-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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As for the original topic.
And I'm not just saying this for people accused of dog fighting.
There is a difference between someone who actually gains pleasure and gratification from hurting a child - and there are those who get the same from hurting animals. Have you ever seen the 'crush' videos? Where they slowly, agonizingly crush small animals, puppies, kittens, rabbits etc. to death? Usually wearing severe high-heels - I got to see a Pit puppy have his little eyes gouged out with a heel for someone to get off sexually. The people who watch and get off to that - HECK no would I have them working with animals!! They belong in jail or a psych ward.

But someone who has hurt animals for whatever reason and not because they enjoyed it particularly - half of the little punks around the neighborhood don't seem to think dogs can even feel. Of course they don't care if their dog gets hurt, or about beating their dog for chewing a shoe. I think having them work with and learn about animals under supervision could help.
Or someone who neglects animals - puts a dog out back and forgets the small collar on her neck and tosses food out not paying attention. They just don't care - they don't care for their dog like they would a person because they don't see it as a thinking, feeling thing. And maybe having to see what thinking, feeling humans do to dogs and having to help these creatures would change someone's heart.

My granddad shot squirrels from his window because they made him mad by eating his pecans. Pointless, because there were enough pecans in that tree to feed a small country.

My own mom, raised by him, cooked crabs alive - it's how just about everyone does it. No remorse, no feelings for that little living thing. Just cover the pot and hear them scratch for a minute or so and then they're just dinner. She has done this all her life - I showed her how much compassion
I had, and told her numerous times they DO feel it, and it hit home. She does not cook them like that anymore.

Or how about the slaughterhouse workers? Do you think they could never regret what they've done?

Nothing angers me more, I've gone to extremes to save animals, namely dogs, from bad situations. One of the only times I have and will become violent is if you hurt an animal in front of me - I've marched my 5'2 self into a group of men (for lack of a better word) and taken a puppy from their hands while daring them to stop me because they were hanging him by a choke chain and taking turns hitting and kicking him 'to make him tough'.

And while I'd just as soon do the same to them, if they showed remorse and I could have made them understand how wrong they were, maybe even turned them around, I would rather do that. There is no better punishment that understanding and remorse.
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What IS a Pit Bull?

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Jaeger, Ben, Goose, Dirk, LingLing, Bentley, Elliot, Batman.
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:26 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I've never seen the crush video's nor would I waste my time to search out watching any animal or person be abused. That is sick and disturbing that people would seek out to view such crap.

Comparing someone who intentionally abuses animals to a slaughter house worker is nonsense. Killing for a meal is much different than killing just to kill. I'm not going to get into the debate about the justification of eating animals.

This thread is about a person who intentionally harms animals, convicted, then doing time in a shelter or rescue as their penance.

Both of the cases above were just a slap on the hands~definitely didn't fit the crime, and they didn't even have to pay restitution to the confiscated dogs vetting, housing or rehab.
The whole thing about these cases that I found odd was the HSUS stepped in before they were arrested to secure kenneling, vetting and supposed rehab and adoption for whatever dogs could be rehomed. That was the first time I've read or heard of them actually helping, and I am curious to see how many dogs were adopted out. In MI it is against the law to rehome any confiscated animal that has been 'used for fighting' so they all were dispersed to rescue in other states... thus making it hard to track the whereabouts.
As far as this story being bad for the breed, well, the breeders of these dogs are the ones to be blamed, not the public or anyone who reports on it.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Don't know about HSUS, but I'm told that ASPCA has specially trained DART teams that they'll send in to help with seized animals in dog-fighting cases. Public agencies just have to call and ask.

Part of what's going on with the animal rescue operations is what was learned from the Vick case. It was the first major case where they professionally eval'd every single dog as an individual before making any decisions about its fate -- and they were surprised to find a number that were pretty docile and wanted nothing to do with fighting. At least one of them is now a therapy dog in California. I think that high-profile experience created more room for groups like ASPCA and HSUS to offer to try to help the dogs, who are the victims of these jerks.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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HSUS isn't usually a great advocate of helping...they are more about regulating and limiting rights. ASPCA is more regional in how active they are as far as helping. We have a local SPCA rescue that isn't affiliated with the ASPCA but because of the name, people think they are one in the same. The local one is a rescue, not an animal law enforcement agency.
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